Eigenvalue-taking operator?Does a product of matrices have eigenvalue 1Limit of largest eigenvalueIs it always possible to “separate” the eigenvalues of an integer matrix?Eigenvalue-related statementsestimate of smallest eigenvalue of Schrodinger operatorconvergence of 2nd eigenvalueFind logarithm of a matrix containing a constrained set of basis elementsExistence of double eigenvalueMaximizing a certain eigenvalue ratioSmallest eigenvalue for Gram matrix of unit norm matrices
Eigenvalue-taking operator?
Does a product of matrices have eigenvalue 1Limit of largest eigenvalueIs it always possible to “separate” the eigenvalues of an integer matrix?Eigenvalue-related statementsestimate of smallest eigenvalue of Schrodinger operatorconvergence of 2nd eigenvalueFind logarithm of a matrix containing a constrained set of basis elementsExistence of double eigenvalueMaximizing a certain eigenvalue ratioSmallest eigenvalue for Gram matrix of unit norm matrices
$begingroup$
$newcommandTroperatornameTr$
Is there a continuous map $(p,t) mapsto lambda(p,t)$ which, given a path $p: [0,1] to M(2,mathbb R)$ and a $t in mathbb [0,1]$, gives back an eigenvalue of $p(t)$? Additionally, I'd like it that if $p(a) = -p(b)$ for some $a, b in [0,1]$, then $lambda(p,a) = -lambda(p,b)$.
A naive possibility would be $lambda(p, t) = fracTr(p(t)) pm sqrtTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t)) 2$, using the quadratic formula and the characteristic polynomial. But this has got $pm$ in it, which is not a function. Changing $pm$ into $+$, the image of the path $$p(t) = beginpmatrix0 & 1-2t \ 2t - 1 & 0 endpmatrix$$ is seen to violate the second condition: namely, $lambda(p,0)=lambda(p,1)=i$ when what's needed is $lambda(p,0)=-lambda(p,1)$.
This problem is unsolvable when $M(2, mathbb R)$ is changed to $M(2, mathbb C)$, as the existence of $lambda(-,-)$ would violate the simple-connectivity of $SL(2,mathbb C)$.
matrices eigenvalues
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$newcommandTroperatornameTr$
Is there a continuous map $(p,t) mapsto lambda(p,t)$ which, given a path $p: [0,1] to M(2,mathbb R)$ and a $t in mathbb [0,1]$, gives back an eigenvalue of $p(t)$? Additionally, I'd like it that if $p(a) = -p(b)$ for some $a, b in [0,1]$, then $lambda(p,a) = -lambda(p,b)$.
A naive possibility would be $lambda(p, t) = fracTr(p(t)) pm sqrtTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t)) 2$, using the quadratic formula and the characteristic polynomial. But this has got $pm$ in it, which is not a function. Changing $pm$ into $+$, the image of the path $$p(t) = beginpmatrix0 & 1-2t \ 2t - 1 & 0 endpmatrix$$ is seen to violate the second condition: namely, $lambda(p,0)=lambda(p,1)=i$ when what's needed is $lambda(p,0)=-lambda(p,1)$.
This problem is unsolvable when $M(2, mathbb R)$ is changed to $M(2, mathbb C)$, as the existence of $lambda(-,-)$ would violate the simple-connectivity of $SL(2,mathbb C)$.
matrices eigenvalues
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You switch between $lambda$ and $L$. It's also not clear what $sqrtcdot$ should mean in your proposed definition of $L$, as a well defined function $mathbb R to mathbb C$ (although I guess any naïve candidate is fine?). What is the topology in which $lambda$ is continuous?
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 8:45
$begingroup$
Please clarify the domain of your function $lambda$. Does it take in the whole path, or is it defined as $lambda:M(2,Bbb R)timesBbb RtoBbb C$? If it takes in the whole path, then we really need the topology you use on the space of paths.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
May 8 at 9:52
$begingroup$
@M.Winter I take your point. I only understand these concepts naively at the moment. It might be premature to be asking these questions if I don't know which topology to use for $M(2, mathbb R)^[0,1]$, for instance. The motivation was to see if I could complete a proof of the lack of simple-connectivity of $SL(2, mathbb R)$. And indeed $lambda$ should take in the whole path, and the second condition should be in hindsight that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is smooth whenever $p$ is smooth. But I'm even less sure how to solve that
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 15:04
$begingroup$
By the way, the discriminant should be $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t))$, not $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 + 4det(p(t))$.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 10 at 1:44
$begingroup$
@LSpice Fixed..
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 10 at 9:13
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$newcommandTroperatornameTr$
Is there a continuous map $(p,t) mapsto lambda(p,t)$ which, given a path $p: [0,1] to M(2,mathbb R)$ and a $t in mathbb [0,1]$, gives back an eigenvalue of $p(t)$? Additionally, I'd like it that if $p(a) = -p(b)$ for some $a, b in [0,1]$, then $lambda(p,a) = -lambda(p,b)$.
A naive possibility would be $lambda(p, t) = fracTr(p(t)) pm sqrtTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t)) 2$, using the quadratic formula and the characteristic polynomial. But this has got $pm$ in it, which is not a function. Changing $pm$ into $+$, the image of the path $$p(t) = beginpmatrix0 & 1-2t \ 2t - 1 & 0 endpmatrix$$ is seen to violate the second condition: namely, $lambda(p,0)=lambda(p,1)=i$ when what's needed is $lambda(p,0)=-lambda(p,1)$.
This problem is unsolvable when $M(2, mathbb R)$ is changed to $M(2, mathbb C)$, as the existence of $lambda(-,-)$ would violate the simple-connectivity of $SL(2,mathbb C)$.
matrices eigenvalues
$endgroup$
$newcommandTroperatornameTr$
Is there a continuous map $(p,t) mapsto lambda(p,t)$ which, given a path $p: [0,1] to M(2,mathbb R)$ and a $t in mathbb [0,1]$, gives back an eigenvalue of $p(t)$? Additionally, I'd like it that if $p(a) = -p(b)$ for some $a, b in [0,1]$, then $lambda(p,a) = -lambda(p,b)$.
A naive possibility would be $lambda(p, t) = fracTr(p(t)) pm sqrtTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t)) 2$, using the quadratic formula and the characteristic polynomial. But this has got $pm$ in it, which is not a function. Changing $pm$ into $+$, the image of the path $$p(t) = beginpmatrix0 & 1-2t \ 2t - 1 & 0 endpmatrix$$ is seen to violate the second condition: namely, $lambda(p,0)=lambda(p,1)=i$ when what's needed is $lambda(p,0)=-lambda(p,1)$.
This problem is unsolvable when $M(2, mathbb R)$ is changed to $M(2, mathbb C)$, as the existence of $lambda(-,-)$ would violate the simple-connectivity of $SL(2,mathbb C)$.
matrices eigenvalues
matrices eigenvalues
edited May 10 at 6:13
man and laptop
asked May 8 at 7:35
man and laptopman and laptop
1417
1417
$begingroup$
You switch between $lambda$ and $L$. It's also not clear what $sqrtcdot$ should mean in your proposed definition of $L$, as a well defined function $mathbb R to mathbb C$ (although I guess any naïve candidate is fine?). What is the topology in which $lambda$ is continuous?
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 8:45
$begingroup$
Please clarify the domain of your function $lambda$. Does it take in the whole path, or is it defined as $lambda:M(2,Bbb R)timesBbb RtoBbb C$? If it takes in the whole path, then we really need the topology you use on the space of paths.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
May 8 at 9:52
$begingroup$
@M.Winter I take your point. I only understand these concepts naively at the moment. It might be premature to be asking these questions if I don't know which topology to use for $M(2, mathbb R)^[0,1]$, for instance. The motivation was to see if I could complete a proof of the lack of simple-connectivity of $SL(2, mathbb R)$. And indeed $lambda$ should take in the whole path, and the second condition should be in hindsight that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is smooth whenever $p$ is smooth. But I'm even less sure how to solve that
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 15:04
$begingroup$
By the way, the discriminant should be $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t))$, not $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 + 4det(p(t))$.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 10 at 1:44
$begingroup$
@LSpice Fixed..
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 10 at 9:13
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You switch between $lambda$ and $L$. It's also not clear what $sqrtcdot$ should mean in your proposed definition of $L$, as a well defined function $mathbb R to mathbb C$ (although I guess any naïve candidate is fine?). What is the topology in which $lambda$ is continuous?
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 8:45
$begingroup$
Please clarify the domain of your function $lambda$. Does it take in the whole path, or is it defined as $lambda:M(2,Bbb R)timesBbb RtoBbb C$? If it takes in the whole path, then we really need the topology you use on the space of paths.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
May 8 at 9:52
$begingroup$
@M.Winter I take your point. I only understand these concepts naively at the moment. It might be premature to be asking these questions if I don't know which topology to use for $M(2, mathbb R)^[0,1]$, for instance. The motivation was to see if I could complete a proof of the lack of simple-connectivity of $SL(2, mathbb R)$. And indeed $lambda$ should take in the whole path, and the second condition should be in hindsight that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is smooth whenever $p$ is smooth. But I'm even less sure how to solve that
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 15:04
$begingroup$
By the way, the discriminant should be $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t))$, not $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 + 4det(p(t))$.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 10 at 1:44
$begingroup$
@LSpice Fixed..
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 10 at 9:13
$begingroup$
You switch between $lambda$ and $L$. It's also not clear what $sqrtcdot$ should mean in your proposed definition of $L$, as a well defined function $mathbb R to mathbb C$ (although I guess any naïve candidate is fine?). What is the topology in which $lambda$ is continuous?
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 8:45
$begingroup$
You switch between $lambda$ and $L$. It's also not clear what $sqrtcdot$ should mean in your proposed definition of $L$, as a well defined function $mathbb R to mathbb C$ (although I guess any naïve candidate is fine?). What is the topology in which $lambda$ is continuous?
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 8:45
$begingroup$
Please clarify the domain of your function $lambda$. Does it take in the whole path, or is it defined as $lambda:M(2,Bbb R)timesBbb RtoBbb C$? If it takes in the whole path, then we really need the topology you use on the space of paths.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
May 8 at 9:52
$begingroup$
Please clarify the domain of your function $lambda$. Does it take in the whole path, or is it defined as $lambda:M(2,Bbb R)timesBbb RtoBbb C$? If it takes in the whole path, then we really need the topology you use on the space of paths.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
May 8 at 9:52
$begingroup$
@M.Winter I take your point. I only understand these concepts naively at the moment. It might be premature to be asking these questions if I don't know which topology to use for $M(2, mathbb R)^[0,1]$, for instance. The motivation was to see if I could complete a proof of the lack of simple-connectivity of $SL(2, mathbb R)$. And indeed $lambda$ should take in the whole path, and the second condition should be in hindsight that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is smooth whenever $p$ is smooth. But I'm even less sure how to solve that
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 15:04
$begingroup$
@M.Winter I take your point. I only understand these concepts naively at the moment. It might be premature to be asking these questions if I don't know which topology to use for $M(2, mathbb R)^[0,1]$, for instance. The motivation was to see if I could complete a proof of the lack of simple-connectivity of $SL(2, mathbb R)$. And indeed $lambda$ should take in the whole path, and the second condition should be in hindsight that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is smooth whenever $p$ is smooth. But I'm even less sure how to solve that
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 15:04
$begingroup$
By the way, the discriminant should be $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t))$, not $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 + 4det(p(t))$.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 10 at 1:44
$begingroup$
By the way, the discriminant should be $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t))$, not $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 + 4det(p(t))$.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 10 at 1:44
$begingroup$
@LSpice Fixed..
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 10 at 9:13
$begingroup$
@LSpice Fixed..
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 10 at 9:13
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I originally gave a wrong candidate for an answer, but in fact no such path can exist (at least, assuming that your topologies are such that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous for all paths $p$). Indeed, define $p : [0, 1] to operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$ by
$$
p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \ sin(pi t) & -cos(pi t) endpmatrix
$$
for all $t in [0, 1]$. Then $lambda(p, t) in pm1$ for all $t in [0, 1]$, but $lambda(p, 1) = -lambda(p, 0)$, which is impossible if $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous.
EDIT: I suspected from your mention of the simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$, and see definitely from your comment, that you are interested in the non-simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. It may be that a particularly simple way to see this is to consider the metaplectic group, which is a non-split double cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. Notice that your original example can be adapted to give a polynomial path in $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ (not just in $operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$, or even just in $operatornameGL(2, mathbb R)$ as my original path was):
$$
t mapsto p(t) = beginpmatrix
t(1 - t) & 1 - t^2(6 - 4t) \
-1 + t^2(6 - 4t) & 4t(1 - t)(3 - 2t)(1 + 2t)
endpmatrix.
$$
Notice that the cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ implicit in your question, namely
$$
E mathrel:= (g, lambda) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $lambda$ is an eigenvalue of $g$,
$$
is a branched cover; it is a double cover only on the regular semisimple set (of elements with distinct eigenvalues). Its restriction to the regular semisimple set is isomorphic (as a cover of the rss set) to the restriction there of the branched cover
$$
(g, B) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $B$ is a Borel subgroup of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$ containing $g$
$$
(namely, associate $(g, lambda)$ and $(g, B)$ if and only if the non-trivial eigenvalue of $operatornameAd(g)$ on $operatornameLie(B)$ is $lambda^2$). However, I think that the restriction is not isomorphic to the restriction of the metaplectic group. Indeed, let $lambda$ and $mu$ be distinct elements of $mathbb R$ satisfying $lambdamu = 1$. Then any lift to $E$ of the path
$$
t mapsto operatornameIntbeginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & sin(pi t)
endpmatrixbeginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix
$$
projects, via $E to mathbb C$, to $lambda, mu$, hence is constantly $lambda$ or constantly $mu$; but, if I've done my computation properly, then
$$
operatornameInt(w(t))Bigl(beginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix, sqrtmuBigr),
$$
where $w(t) = Bigl(beginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & cos(pi t)
endpmatrix, epsilon_tBigr)$, with $epsilon_t(i) = e^pi i t/2$, is a path in the restriction to the rss set of the metaplectic cover that connects the two pre-images of $beginpmatrix lambda & 0 \ 0 & mu endpmatrix$. (I'm using the description of points in the metaplectic group from Wikipedia.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The topologies are indeed the usual Euclidean topologies. The $sqrt : mathbb R to mathbb C$ is really any continuous function such that $(sqrt x)^2 = x$
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 9:22
$begingroup$
It makes sense to speak of the continuity of a map $e$ like mine in the Euclidean topologies, but your map is defined on paths, which don't carry a Euclidean topology. Probably something like the compact-open topology there is what you want. Anyway, for any reasonable choice of topology on paths, at least the sort of composition I've suggested should be continuous.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:25
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, sorry, this isn't continuous; consider its composition with $t mapsto beginpmatrix t & -1 \ 1 & 0 endpmatrix$ at $t = 0$. I'll think further.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:29
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, in fact I now think that there is no such path, as evidenced by a small variant of your proposed example. Please see the new edit. Sorry for my mistake!
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:56
$begingroup$
I think I asked the wrong question. But it's a nice example. My second condition should've been that if $p$ is smooth then $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ should also be smooth. This is violated for $p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(2pi t) & -sin(2pi t) \ sin(2pi t) & cos(2pi t) endpmatrix$ and my naive definition of $lambda$. After $t=0.5$, the trajectory of $tmapstolambda(p,t)$ suddenly reverses. This is also why I used $L$ originally instead of $lambda$, so I could talk about my example without confusing it with the imagined $lambda$.I may reverse the edit that proposed the name change
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 14:43
|
show 3 more comments
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "504"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f331024%2feigenvalue-taking-operator%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I originally gave a wrong candidate for an answer, but in fact no such path can exist (at least, assuming that your topologies are such that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous for all paths $p$). Indeed, define $p : [0, 1] to operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$ by
$$
p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \ sin(pi t) & -cos(pi t) endpmatrix
$$
for all $t in [0, 1]$. Then $lambda(p, t) in pm1$ for all $t in [0, 1]$, but $lambda(p, 1) = -lambda(p, 0)$, which is impossible if $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous.
EDIT: I suspected from your mention of the simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$, and see definitely from your comment, that you are interested in the non-simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. It may be that a particularly simple way to see this is to consider the metaplectic group, which is a non-split double cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. Notice that your original example can be adapted to give a polynomial path in $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ (not just in $operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$, or even just in $operatornameGL(2, mathbb R)$ as my original path was):
$$
t mapsto p(t) = beginpmatrix
t(1 - t) & 1 - t^2(6 - 4t) \
-1 + t^2(6 - 4t) & 4t(1 - t)(3 - 2t)(1 + 2t)
endpmatrix.
$$
Notice that the cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ implicit in your question, namely
$$
E mathrel:= (g, lambda) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $lambda$ is an eigenvalue of $g$,
$$
is a branched cover; it is a double cover only on the regular semisimple set (of elements with distinct eigenvalues). Its restriction to the regular semisimple set is isomorphic (as a cover of the rss set) to the restriction there of the branched cover
$$
(g, B) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $B$ is a Borel subgroup of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$ containing $g$
$$
(namely, associate $(g, lambda)$ and $(g, B)$ if and only if the non-trivial eigenvalue of $operatornameAd(g)$ on $operatornameLie(B)$ is $lambda^2$). However, I think that the restriction is not isomorphic to the restriction of the metaplectic group. Indeed, let $lambda$ and $mu$ be distinct elements of $mathbb R$ satisfying $lambdamu = 1$. Then any lift to $E$ of the path
$$
t mapsto operatornameIntbeginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & sin(pi t)
endpmatrixbeginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix
$$
projects, via $E to mathbb C$, to $lambda, mu$, hence is constantly $lambda$ or constantly $mu$; but, if I've done my computation properly, then
$$
operatornameInt(w(t))Bigl(beginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix, sqrtmuBigr),
$$
where $w(t) = Bigl(beginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & cos(pi t)
endpmatrix, epsilon_tBigr)$, with $epsilon_t(i) = e^pi i t/2$, is a path in the restriction to the rss set of the metaplectic cover that connects the two pre-images of $beginpmatrix lambda & 0 \ 0 & mu endpmatrix$. (I'm using the description of points in the metaplectic group from Wikipedia.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The topologies are indeed the usual Euclidean topologies. The $sqrt : mathbb R to mathbb C$ is really any continuous function such that $(sqrt x)^2 = x$
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 9:22
$begingroup$
It makes sense to speak of the continuity of a map $e$ like mine in the Euclidean topologies, but your map is defined on paths, which don't carry a Euclidean topology. Probably something like the compact-open topology there is what you want. Anyway, for any reasonable choice of topology on paths, at least the sort of composition I've suggested should be continuous.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:25
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, sorry, this isn't continuous; consider its composition with $t mapsto beginpmatrix t & -1 \ 1 & 0 endpmatrix$ at $t = 0$. I'll think further.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:29
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, in fact I now think that there is no such path, as evidenced by a small variant of your proposed example. Please see the new edit. Sorry for my mistake!
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:56
$begingroup$
I think I asked the wrong question. But it's a nice example. My second condition should've been that if $p$ is smooth then $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ should also be smooth. This is violated for $p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(2pi t) & -sin(2pi t) \ sin(2pi t) & cos(2pi t) endpmatrix$ and my naive definition of $lambda$. After $t=0.5$, the trajectory of $tmapstolambda(p,t)$ suddenly reverses. This is also why I used $L$ originally instead of $lambda$, so I could talk about my example without confusing it with the imagined $lambda$.I may reverse the edit that proposed the name change
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 14:43
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
I originally gave a wrong candidate for an answer, but in fact no such path can exist (at least, assuming that your topologies are such that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous for all paths $p$). Indeed, define $p : [0, 1] to operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$ by
$$
p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \ sin(pi t) & -cos(pi t) endpmatrix
$$
for all $t in [0, 1]$. Then $lambda(p, t) in pm1$ for all $t in [0, 1]$, but $lambda(p, 1) = -lambda(p, 0)$, which is impossible if $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous.
EDIT: I suspected from your mention of the simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$, and see definitely from your comment, that you are interested in the non-simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. It may be that a particularly simple way to see this is to consider the metaplectic group, which is a non-split double cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. Notice that your original example can be adapted to give a polynomial path in $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ (not just in $operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$, or even just in $operatornameGL(2, mathbb R)$ as my original path was):
$$
t mapsto p(t) = beginpmatrix
t(1 - t) & 1 - t^2(6 - 4t) \
-1 + t^2(6 - 4t) & 4t(1 - t)(3 - 2t)(1 + 2t)
endpmatrix.
$$
Notice that the cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ implicit in your question, namely
$$
E mathrel:= (g, lambda) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $lambda$ is an eigenvalue of $g$,
$$
is a branched cover; it is a double cover only on the regular semisimple set (of elements with distinct eigenvalues). Its restriction to the regular semisimple set is isomorphic (as a cover of the rss set) to the restriction there of the branched cover
$$
(g, B) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $B$ is a Borel subgroup of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$ containing $g$
$$
(namely, associate $(g, lambda)$ and $(g, B)$ if and only if the non-trivial eigenvalue of $operatornameAd(g)$ on $operatornameLie(B)$ is $lambda^2$). However, I think that the restriction is not isomorphic to the restriction of the metaplectic group. Indeed, let $lambda$ and $mu$ be distinct elements of $mathbb R$ satisfying $lambdamu = 1$. Then any lift to $E$ of the path
$$
t mapsto operatornameIntbeginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & sin(pi t)
endpmatrixbeginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix
$$
projects, via $E to mathbb C$, to $lambda, mu$, hence is constantly $lambda$ or constantly $mu$; but, if I've done my computation properly, then
$$
operatornameInt(w(t))Bigl(beginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix, sqrtmuBigr),
$$
where $w(t) = Bigl(beginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & cos(pi t)
endpmatrix, epsilon_tBigr)$, with $epsilon_t(i) = e^pi i t/2$, is a path in the restriction to the rss set of the metaplectic cover that connects the two pre-images of $beginpmatrix lambda & 0 \ 0 & mu endpmatrix$. (I'm using the description of points in the metaplectic group from Wikipedia.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The topologies are indeed the usual Euclidean topologies. The $sqrt : mathbb R to mathbb C$ is really any continuous function such that $(sqrt x)^2 = x$
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 9:22
$begingroup$
It makes sense to speak of the continuity of a map $e$ like mine in the Euclidean topologies, but your map is defined on paths, which don't carry a Euclidean topology. Probably something like the compact-open topology there is what you want. Anyway, for any reasonable choice of topology on paths, at least the sort of composition I've suggested should be continuous.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:25
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, sorry, this isn't continuous; consider its composition with $t mapsto beginpmatrix t & -1 \ 1 & 0 endpmatrix$ at $t = 0$. I'll think further.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:29
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, in fact I now think that there is no such path, as evidenced by a small variant of your proposed example. Please see the new edit. Sorry for my mistake!
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:56
$begingroup$
I think I asked the wrong question. But it's a nice example. My second condition should've been that if $p$ is smooth then $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ should also be smooth. This is violated for $p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(2pi t) & -sin(2pi t) \ sin(2pi t) & cos(2pi t) endpmatrix$ and my naive definition of $lambda$. After $t=0.5$, the trajectory of $tmapstolambda(p,t)$ suddenly reverses. This is also why I used $L$ originally instead of $lambda$, so I could talk about my example without confusing it with the imagined $lambda$.I may reverse the edit that proposed the name change
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 14:43
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
I originally gave a wrong candidate for an answer, but in fact no such path can exist (at least, assuming that your topologies are such that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous for all paths $p$). Indeed, define $p : [0, 1] to operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$ by
$$
p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \ sin(pi t) & -cos(pi t) endpmatrix
$$
for all $t in [0, 1]$. Then $lambda(p, t) in pm1$ for all $t in [0, 1]$, but $lambda(p, 1) = -lambda(p, 0)$, which is impossible if $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous.
EDIT: I suspected from your mention of the simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$, and see definitely from your comment, that you are interested in the non-simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. It may be that a particularly simple way to see this is to consider the metaplectic group, which is a non-split double cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. Notice that your original example can be adapted to give a polynomial path in $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ (not just in $operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$, or even just in $operatornameGL(2, mathbb R)$ as my original path was):
$$
t mapsto p(t) = beginpmatrix
t(1 - t) & 1 - t^2(6 - 4t) \
-1 + t^2(6 - 4t) & 4t(1 - t)(3 - 2t)(1 + 2t)
endpmatrix.
$$
Notice that the cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ implicit in your question, namely
$$
E mathrel:= (g, lambda) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $lambda$ is an eigenvalue of $g$,
$$
is a branched cover; it is a double cover only on the regular semisimple set (of elements with distinct eigenvalues). Its restriction to the regular semisimple set is isomorphic (as a cover of the rss set) to the restriction there of the branched cover
$$
(g, B) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $B$ is a Borel subgroup of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$ containing $g$
$$
(namely, associate $(g, lambda)$ and $(g, B)$ if and only if the non-trivial eigenvalue of $operatornameAd(g)$ on $operatornameLie(B)$ is $lambda^2$). However, I think that the restriction is not isomorphic to the restriction of the metaplectic group. Indeed, let $lambda$ and $mu$ be distinct elements of $mathbb R$ satisfying $lambdamu = 1$. Then any lift to $E$ of the path
$$
t mapsto operatornameIntbeginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & sin(pi t)
endpmatrixbeginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix
$$
projects, via $E to mathbb C$, to $lambda, mu$, hence is constantly $lambda$ or constantly $mu$; but, if I've done my computation properly, then
$$
operatornameInt(w(t))Bigl(beginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix, sqrtmuBigr),
$$
where $w(t) = Bigl(beginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & cos(pi t)
endpmatrix, epsilon_tBigr)$, with $epsilon_t(i) = e^pi i t/2$, is a path in the restriction to the rss set of the metaplectic cover that connects the two pre-images of $beginpmatrix lambda & 0 \ 0 & mu endpmatrix$. (I'm using the description of points in the metaplectic group from Wikipedia.)
$endgroup$
I originally gave a wrong candidate for an answer, but in fact no such path can exist (at least, assuming that your topologies are such that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous for all paths $p$). Indeed, define $p : [0, 1] to operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$ by
$$
p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \ sin(pi t) & -cos(pi t) endpmatrix
$$
for all $t in [0, 1]$. Then $lambda(p, t) in pm1$ for all $t in [0, 1]$, but $lambda(p, 1) = -lambda(p, 0)$, which is impossible if $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is continuous.
EDIT: I suspected from your mention of the simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$, and see definitely from your comment, that you are interested in the non-simple connectedness of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. It may be that a particularly simple way to see this is to consider the metaplectic group, which is a non-split double cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$. Notice that your original example can be adapted to give a polynomial path in $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ (not just in $operatorname M(2, mathbb R)$, or even just in $operatornameGL(2, mathbb R)$ as my original path was):
$$
t mapsto p(t) = beginpmatrix
t(1 - t) & 1 - t^2(6 - 4t) \
-1 + t^2(6 - 4t) & 4t(1 - t)(3 - 2t)(1 + 2t)
endpmatrix.
$$
Notice that the cover of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ implicit in your question, namely
$$
E mathrel:= (g, lambda) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $lambda$ is an eigenvalue of $g$,
$$
is a branched cover; it is a double cover only on the regular semisimple set (of elements with distinct eigenvalues). Its restriction to the regular semisimple set is isomorphic (as a cover of the rss set) to the restriction there of the branched cover
$$
(g, B) : text$g in operatornameSL(2, mathbb R)$ and $B$ is a Borel subgroup of $operatornameSL(2, mathbb C)$ containing $g$
$$
(namely, associate $(g, lambda)$ and $(g, B)$ if and only if the non-trivial eigenvalue of $operatornameAd(g)$ on $operatornameLie(B)$ is $lambda^2$). However, I think that the restriction is not isomorphic to the restriction of the metaplectic group. Indeed, let $lambda$ and $mu$ be distinct elements of $mathbb R$ satisfying $lambdamu = 1$. Then any lift to $E$ of the path
$$
t mapsto operatornameIntbeginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & sin(pi t)
endpmatrixbeginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix
$$
projects, via $E to mathbb C$, to $lambda, mu$, hence is constantly $lambda$ or constantly $mu$; but, if I've done my computation properly, then
$$
operatornameInt(w(t))Bigl(beginpmatrix
lambda & 0 \
0 & mu
endpmatrix, sqrtmuBigr),
$$
where $w(t) = Bigl(beginpmatrix
cos(pi t) & sin(pi t) \
-sin(pi t) & cos(pi t)
endpmatrix, epsilon_tBigr)$, with $epsilon_t(i) = e^pi i t/2$, is a path in the restriction to the rss set of the metaplectic cover that connects the two pre-images of $beginpmatrix lambda & 0 \ 0 & mu endpmatrix$. (I'm using the description of points in the metaplectic group from Wikipedia.)
edited May 8 at 17:53
answered May 8 at 9:10
LSpiceLSpice
3,04322630
3,04322630
$begingroup$
The topologies are indeed the usual Euclidean topologies. The $sqrt : mathbb R to mathbb C$ is really any continuous function such that $(sqrt x)^2 = x$
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 9:22
$begingroup$
It makes sense to speak of the continuity of a map $e$ like mine in the Euclidean topologies, but your map is defined on paths, which don't carry a Euclidean topology. Probably something like the compact-open topology there is what you want. Anyway, for any reasonable choice of topology on paths, at least the sort of composition I've suggested should be continuous.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:25
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, sorry, this isn't continuous; consider its composition with $t mapsto beginpmatrix t & -1 \ 1 & 0 endpmatrix$ at $t = 0$. I'll think further.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:29
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, in fact I now think that there is no such path, as evidenced by a small variant of your proposed example. Please see the new edit. Sorry for my mistake!
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:56
$begingroup$
I think I asked the wrong question. But it's a nice example. My second condition should've been that if $p$ is smooth then $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ should also be smooth. This is violated for $p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(2pi t) & -sin(2pi t) \ sin(2pi t) & cos(2pi t) endpmatrix$ and my naive definition of $lambda$. After $t=0.5$, the trajectory of $tmapstolambda(p,t)$ suddenly reverses. This is also why I used $L$ originally instead of $lambda$, so I could talk about my example without confusing it with the imagined $lambda$.I may reverse the edit that proposed the name change
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 14:43
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
The topologies are indeed the usual Euclidean topologies. The $sqrt : mathbb R to mathbb C$ is really any continuous function such that $(sqrt x)^2 = x$
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 9:22
$begingroup$
It makes sense to speak of the continuity of a map $e$ like mine in the Euclidean topologies, but your map is defined on paths, which don't carry a Euclidean topology. Probably something like the compact-open topology there is what you want. Anyway, for any reasonable choice of topology on paths, at least the sort of composition I've suggested should be continuous.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:25
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, sorry, this isn't continuous; consider its composition with $t mapsto beginpmatrix t & -1 \ 1 & 0 endpmatrix$ at $t = 0$. I'll think further.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:29
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, in fact I now think that there is no such path, as evidenced by a small variant of your proposed example. Please see the new edit. Sorry for my mistake!
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:56
$begingroup$
I think I asked the wrong question. But it's a nice example. My second condition should've been that if $p$ is smooth then $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ should also be smooth. This is violated for $p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(2pi t) & -sin(2pi t) \ sin(2pi t) & cos(2pi t) endpmatrix$ and my naive definition of $lambda$. After $t=0.5$, the trajectory of $tmapstolambda(p,t)$ suddenly reverses. This is also why I used $L$ originally instead of $lambda$, so I could talk about my example without confusing it with the imagined $lambda$.I may reverse the edit that proposed the name change
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 14:43
$begingroup$
The topologies are indeed the usual Euclidean topologies. The $sqrt : mathbb R to mathbb C$ is really any continuous function such that $(sqrt x)^2 = x$
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 9:22
$begingroup$
The topologies are indeed the usual Euclidean topologies. The $sqrt : mathbb R to mathbb C$ is really any continuous function such that $(sqrt x)^2 = x$
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 9:22
$begingroup$
It makes sense to speak of the continuity of a map $e$ like mine in the Euclidean topologies, but your map is defined on paths, which don't carry a Euclidean topology. Probably something like the compact-open topology there is what you want. Anyway, for any reasonable choice of topology on paths, at least the sort of composition I've suggested should be continuous.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:25
$begingroup$
It makes sense to speak of the continuity of a map $e$ like mine in the Euclidean topologies, but your map is defined on paths, which don't carry a Euclidean topology. Probably something like the compact-open topology there is what you want. Anyway, for any reasonable choice of topology on paths, at least the sort of composition I've suggested should be continuous.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:25
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, sorry, this isn't continuous; consider its composition with $t mapsto beginpmatrix t & -1 \ 1 & 0 endpmatrix$ at $t = 0$. I'll think further.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:29
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, sorry, this isn't continuous; consider its composition with $t mapsto beginpmatrix t & -1 \ 1 & 0 endpmatrix$ at $t = 0$. I'll think further.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:29
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, in fact I now think that there is no such path, as evidenced by a small variant of your proposed example. Please see the new edit. Sorry for my mistake!
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:56
$begingroup$
@manonlaptop, in fact I now think that there is no such path, as evidenced by a small variant of your proposed example. Please see the new edit. Sorry for my mistake!
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 9:56
$begingroup$
I think I asked the wrong question. But it's a nice example. My second condition should've been that if $p$ is smooth then $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ should also be smooth. This is violated for $p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(2pi t) & -sin(2pi t) \ sin(2pi t) & cos(2pi t) endpmatrix$ and my naive definition of $lambda$. After $t=0.5$, the trajectory of $tmapstolambda(p,t)$ suddenly reverses. This is also why I used $L$ originally instead of $lambda$, so I could talk about my example without confusing it with the imagined $lambda$.I may reverse the edit that proposed the name change
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 14:43
$begingroup$
I think I asked the wrong question. But it's a nice example. My second condition should've been that if $p$ is smooth then $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ should also be smooth. This is violated for $p(t) = beginpmatrix cos(2pi t) & -sin(2pi t) \ sin(2pi t) & cos(2pi t) endpmatrix$ and my naive definition of $lambda$. After $t=0.5$, the trajectory of $tmapstolambda(p,t)$ suddenly reverses. This is also why I used $L$ originally instead of $lambda$, so I could talk about my example without confusing it with the imagined $lambda$.I may reverse the edit that proposed the name change
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 14:43
|
show 3 more comments
Thanks for contributing an answer to MathOverflow!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f331024%2feigenvalue-taking-operator%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
$begingroup$
You switch between $lambda$ and $L$. It's also not clear what $sqrtcdot$ should mean in your proposed definition of $L$, as a well defined function $mathbb R to mathbb C$ (although I guess any naïve candidate is fine?). What is the topology in which $lambda$ is continuous?
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 8 at 8:45
$begingroup$
Please clarify the domain of your function $lambda$. Does it take in the whole path, or is it defined as $lambda:M(2,Bbb R)timesBbb RtoBbb C$? If it takes in the whole path, then we really need the topology you use on the space of paths.
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
May 8 at 9:52
$begingroup$
@M.Winter I take your point. I only understand these concepts naively at the moment. It might be premature to be asking these questions if I don't know which topology to use for $M(2, mathbb R)^[0,1]$, for instance. The motivation was to see if I could complete a proof of the lack of simple-connectivity of $SL(2, mathbb R)$. And indeed $lambda$ should take in the whole path, and the second condition should be in hindsight that $t mapsto lambda(p, t)$ is smooth whenever $p$ is smooth. But I'm even less sure how to solve that
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 8 at 15:04
$begingroup$
By the way, the discriminant should be $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 - 4det(p(t))$, not $operatornameTr(p(t))^2 + 4det(p(t))$.
$endgroup$
– LSpice
May 10 at 1:44
$begingroup$
@LSpice Fixed..
$endgroup$
– man and laptop
May 10 at 9:13