Why the work done is positive when bringing 2 opposite charges together?Why does this line integral give the wrong sign?Integrating a dot product gives wrong sign for work doneWhat is the sign of the work done on the system and by the system?Work done should be positive but coming out negative?Derivation of a work done by forces on chargeWhen is work done on or by something?Need help with signs (+ -) in electric potential work and potential energy problemWhy gravitational potential is negative, as displacement and force are in the same direction?Why is the work done in moving a unit mass from infinity to a point (where gravitational field exists) negative?What is the significance of the sign of work done? Does it affect internal energy also?What is the difference between positive negative potential and positive, negative work done?Why can work done by friction be negative if work is a scalar?

Through what methods and mechanisms can a multi-material FDM printer operate?

Who operates delivery flights for commercial airlines?

C SIGINT signal in Linux

Movie where a boy is transported into the future by an alien spaceship

Will TSA allow me to carry a Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP)/sleep apnea device?

What is the purpose of building foundations?

Pronoun introduced before its antecedent

How could a government be implemented in a virtual reality?

Is there any word or phrase for negative bearing?

Calling GPL'ed socket server inside Docker?

Why don't B747s start takeoffs with full throttle?

What are the words for people who cause trouble believing they know better?

What's the correct term for a waitress in the Middle Ages?

How to generate random points without duplication?

Why did Hela need Heimdal's sword?

Smooth switching between 12v batteries, with toggle switch

Why did a party with more votes get fewer seats in the 2019 European Parliament election in Denmark?

Does the "6 seconds per round" rule apply to speaking/roleplaying during combat situations?

Building a road to escape Earth's gravity by making a pyramid on Antartica

How can I instantiate a lambda closure type in C++11/14?

Aligning object in a commutative diagram

Adding two lambda-functions in C++

Why is the relationship between frequency and pitch exponential?

Does an ice chest packed full of frozen food need ice? 18 day Grand Canyon trip



Why the work done is positive when bringing 2 opposite charges together?


Why does this line integral give the wrong sign?Integrating a dot product gives wrong sign for work doneWhat is the sign of the work done on the system and by the system?Work done should be positive but coming out negative?Derivation of a work done by forces on chargeWhen is work done on or by something?Need help with signs (+ -) in electric potential work and potential energy problemWhy gravitational potential is negative, as displacement and force are in the same direction?Why is the work done in moving a unit mass from infinity to a point (where gravitational field exists) negative?What is the significance of the sign of work done? Does it affect internal energy also?What is the difference between positive negative potential and positive, negative work done?Why can work done by friction be negative if work is a scalar?













2












$begingroup$


we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



From mathematical point of view it says the applied force is positive here and the (dr) is negative here.but what's the physical significance of the sign is here?and if so when can we say the applied force is positive or negative(in case of bringing two same charges together)?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    $W=vecFcdotDelta vecx$ ... but what is $vecF$? The electrostatic force between the two charges, or the force that is (somehow) pushing the charges?
    $endgroup$
    – garyp
    May 19 at 19:38
















2












$begingroup$


we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



From mathematical point of view it says the applied force is positive here and the (dr) is negative here.but what's the physical significance of the sign is here?and if so when can we say the applied force is positive or negative(in case of bringing two same charges together)?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    $W=vecFcdotDelta vecx$ ... but what is $vecF$? The electrostatic force between the two charges, or the force that is (somehow) pushing the charges?
    $endgroup$
    – garyp
    May 19 at 19:38














2












2








2


1



$begingroup$


we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



From mathematical point of view it says the applied force is positive here and the (dr) is negative here.but what's the physical significance of the sign is here?and if so when can we say the applied force is positive or negative(in case of bringing two same charges together)?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



From mathematical point of view it says the applied force is positive here and the (dr) is negative here.but what's the physical significance of the sign is here?and if so when can we say the applied force is positive or negative(in case of bringing two same charges together)?







electrostatics work conventions






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited May 19 at 18:56









Qmechanic

109k122081281




109k122081281










asked May 19 at 18:53









HawkingoHawkingo

998




998











  • $begingroup$
    $W=vecFcdotDelta vecx$ ... but what is $vecF$? The electrostatic force between the two charges, or the force that is (somehow) pushing the charges?
    $endgroup$
    – garyp
    May 19 at 19:38

















  • $begingroup$
    $W=vecFcdotDelta vecx$ ... but what is $vecF$? The electrostatic force between the two charges, or the force that is (somehow) pushing the charges?
    $endgroup$
    – garyp
    May 19 at 19:38
















$begingroup$
$W=vecFcdotDelta vecx$ ... but what is $vecF$? The electrostatic force between the two charges, or the force that is (somehow) pushing the charges?
$endgroup$
– garyp
May 19 at 19:38





$begingroup$
$W=vecFcdotDelta vecx$ ... but what is $vecF$? The electrostatic force between the two charges, or the force that is (somehow) pushing the charges?
$endgroup$
– garyp
May 19 at 19:38











6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

"we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction."



I think you are not considering the displacement as a vector- suppose one is at a position $mathbfr$ and moves a unit positive charge towards the other positive charge;
then his differential element is $- mathbfdr$ (a decrement in r)
so the work done, $F dr$,
becomes equivalent to $- mathbfFcdot mathbfdr$ and the angle between $mathbfF$ and $mathbfdr$ is $pi$ as they are just opposite to each other.



Or, say, $mathbfF$ is radially outward and $mathbfdr$ is inward. In this case the work done



$$
dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr = - |F| |dr| cos(pi) = |Fdr|,
$$



which is a positive number.



Let us now take situation in which the unit positive charge is moved from $mathbfr$ towards a negative charge , then again $mathbfdr$ is a decrement in $r$ and its $-mathbfdr$.



In this case the work done will be $dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr$,
where $mathbfF$ is now radially inward and $mathbfdr$ is a decrement so thath the angle between them is zero.



Thereby $W$ will be negative and such negative work is being done by the field rather than the external agency.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    but the F is here represents the applied force and the displacement is in the same direction of the applied force, so how can be the angle between them is pi?
    $endgroup$
    – Hawkingo
    May 22 at 0:21










  • $begingroup$
    @Hawkingo Suppose an external agent is slowly moving the unit charge from a point a to b inward and he is just holding the charge against the force F-outward then the angle between displacement and force should be pi...
    $endgroup$
    – drvrm
    May 22 at 10:56


















3












$begingroup$

It is a matter of who is doing the work. We are often interested in experiments where the work is done by the experimenter. In the case that you are mentioning, the experimenter has to apply force against the force of repulsion between the particles to bring two positively charged objects at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of the force of the experimenter is the same as the direction of the displacement and therefore the work done is positive. Reverse holds for the oppositely charged particles. The particles are trying to pull each other together and the experimenter has to apply force to keep them at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of force and displacement wrt to the experimenter is opposite.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$

    Remember that work is defined as $W=vecFcdot vecx$ so only the angle between force and displacement matters not the sign convention (in the one-dimensional case). $dr$ is negative means that $r$ is decreasing and the positive direction here is taken in the direction away from the other charge and the work done by an external force is considered so force and displacement are in opposite direction and hence the work done (by external agent) is negative.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      In the end this depends on the context. Are you asking "How much work did the system do?" or are you asking "How much work was applied to the system?". The former is really only useful when your system is some kind of motor / energy source, where you are looking at (one form of) energy flowing into a different system. The latter framing is how we usually talk in pure physics considerations. The idea here is that the work should be positive when the energy in the system increases and negative when it decreases.




      Let's adopt the latter convention and apply it to your example: We have one positive charge $A$ "nailed to" the origin of our coordinate system and a negative one, $B$, at infinity. We say that $B$ has the potential energy $E_0 = 0,mathrm J$. Since opposite charges attract, $B$ will naturally fall toward $A$, so its potential energy has to decrease to some negative value $E_1$ when being moved to a new position at a finite distance from $A$. The work you are looking for is just $W = E_1$ here (which is negative).



      Remember that we are only considering transitions between static states of the system here, i.e. no kinetic energies. You could say we want to move $B$ towards $A$ at an infinitely small velocity. In order to do that, we have to work against the charge's natural drive to fall towards $A$, so the force "we" are applying is opposite to the direction of movement.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$




















        0












        $begingroup$

        we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



        What makes you think the work done is negative?



        If the electric field is bringing opposite charges together the electric field is doing positive work on each causing each to lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The force the field applies to each charge is in the same direction as their displacement.



        The gravity analogy is the gravitational field doing work on a falling object. The direction of the force of gravity is the same as the displacement and the object loses potential energy and gains an equal amount of kinetic energy.



        On the other hand, if the charges are initially close together and you want to separate them (move them apart), then an external agent is needed to do work positive work to separate them applying a force equal in magnitude to the opposing electrical force (thus moving the charge at constant velocity). However at the same time the external force does positive work on the charges, the electric field does an equal amount of negative work taking the energy away from the charge and storing it as electrical potential energy in the charge/electric field system.



        The gravity analogy is when you apply an upward force equal to gravity to raise an object a height $h$. You (the external agent) does positive work on the object while gravity does an equal amount of negative work (the force of gravity being opposite to the displacement), taking the energy away from the object and storing it as gravitational potential energy of the object/earth system.



        Hope this helps.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$




















          0












          $begingroup$

          Assume that you have two point charges $1$ and $2$ and the force on charge $2$ due to charge $1$ is $vec F(r)_text2 due to 1 = F(r) _text2 due to 1,hat r $ where $F(r)_text2 due to 1$ is the component of the force in the $hat r$ direction, pointing away from charge $1$.



          To move charge $2$ an external force $vec F(r)_rm external = F(r)_rm external ,hat r$ must be applied where $vec F(r)_rm external + vec F(r)_text1 due to 2=0 Rightarrow F(r)_rm external = -F(r)_text1 due to 2$.



          Suppose that the external force causes a small displacement of charge $2$ equal to $Delta vec r = (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r$



          The work done by the external force is approximately equal to



          $vec F_rm external(r_rm initial) cdot Delta vec r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) hat r cdot (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) times (r_rm final - r_rm initial)$



          This a general result and has made no assumption about the sign of the charges and the displacement of charge $2$.



          Using this relationship it is easy to answer your question.



          If the two charges are both positive then $F_rm external(r_rm initial)$ is negative.

          Bringing charge $2$ closer to charge $1$ means that $r_rm final < r_rm initial$ and so $r_rm final - r_rm initial$ is negative.



          So the work done is the product of two negative quantities ie positive.



          With the external force being a function of position the work done can be written as



          $$int^r_final_r_rm initial vec F(r)_rm external cdot dvec r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external,hat r cdot dr ,hat r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external, dr$$



          with the sign of $dr$ being dictated by the limits of integration.




          Within this site there are a number of questions about using the integral to find the work done and getting the wrong sign for the answer.

          Almost all the errors are due to using $-dr$ instead of $dr$ within the integral and/or including $cos pi$ when evaluating the dot product, eg link 1, link 2, etc.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













            Your Answer








            StackExchange.ready(function()
            var channelOptions =
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "151"
            ;
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
            createEditor();
            );

            else
            createEditor();

            );

            function createEditor()
            StackExchange.prepareEditor(
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
            convertImagesToLinks: false,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: null,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader:
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            ,
            noCode: true, onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            );



            );













            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f481126%2fwhy-the-work-done-is-positive-when-bringing-2-opposite-charges-together%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            6 Answers
            6






            active

            oldest

            votes








            6 Answers
            6






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            2












            $begingroup$

            "we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction."



            I think you are not considering the displacement as a vector- suppose one is at a position $mathbfr$ and moves a unit positive charge towards the other positive charge;
            then his differential element is $- mathbfdr$ (a decrement in r)
            so the work done, $F dr$,
            becomes equivalent to $- mathbfFcdot mathbfdr$ and the angle between $mathbfF$ and $mathbfdr$ is $pi$ as they are just opposite to each other.



            Or, say, $mathbfF$ is radially outward and $mathbfdr$ is inward. In this case the work done



            $$
            dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr = - |F| |dr| cos(pi) = |Fdr|,
            $$



            which is a positive number.



            Let us now take situation in which the unit positive charge is moved from $mathbfr$ towards a negative charge , then again $mathbfdr$ is a decrement in $r$ and its $-mathbfdr$.



            In this case the work done will be $dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr$,
            where $mathbfF$ is now radially inward and $mathbfdr$ is a decrement so thath the angle between them is zero.



            Thereby $W$ will be negative and such negative work is being done by the field rather than the external agency.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              but the F is here represents the applied force and the displacement is in the same direction of the applied force, so how can be the angle between them is pi?
              $endgroup$
              – Hawkingo
              May 22 at 0:21










            • $begingroup$
              @Hawkingo Suppose an external agent is slowly moving the unit charge from a point a to b inward and he is just holding the charge against the force F-outward then the angle between displacement and force should be pi...
              $endgroup$
              – drvrm
              May 22 at 10:56















            2












            $begingroup$

            "we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction."



            I think you are not considering the displacement as a vector- suppose one is at a position $mathbfr$ and moves a unit positive charge towards the other positive charge;
            then his differential element is $- mathbfdr$ (a decrement in r)
            so the work done, $F dr$,
            becomes equivalent to $- mathbfFcdot mathbfdr$ and the angle between $mathbfF$ and $mathbfdr$ is $pi$ as they are just opposite to each other.



            Or, say, $mathbfF$ is radially outward and $mathbfdr$ is inward. In this case the work done



            $$
            dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr = - |F| |dr| cos(pi) = |Fdr|,
            $$



            which is a positive number.



            Let us now take situation in which the unit positive charge is moved from $mathbfr$ towards a negative charge , then again $mathbfdr$ is a decrement in $r$ and its $-mathbfdr$.



            In this case the work done will be $dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr$,
            where $mathbfF$ is now radially inward and $mathbfdr$ is a decrement so thath the angle between them is zero.



            Thereby $W$ will be negative and such negative work is being done by the field rather than the external agency.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              but the F is here represents the applied force and the displacement is in the same direction of the applied force, so how can be the angle between them is pi?
              $endgroup$
              – Hawkingo
              May 22 at 0:21










            • $begingroup$
              @Hawkingo Suppose an external agent is slowly moving the unit charge from a point a to b inward and he is just holding the charge against the force F-outward then the angle between displacement and force should be pi...
              $endgroup$
              – drvrm
              May 22 at 10:56













            2












            2








            2





            $begingroup$

            "we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction."



            I think you are not considering the displacement as a vector- suppose one is at a position $mathbfr$ and moves a unit positive charge towards the other positive charge;
            then his differential element is $- mathbfdr$ (a decrement in r)
            so the work done, $F dr$,
            becomes equivalent to $- mathbfFcdot mathbfdr$ and the angle between $mathbfF$ and $mathbfdr$ is $pi$ as they are just opposite to each other.



            Or, say, $mathbfF$ is radially outward and $mathbfdr$ is inward. In this case the work done



            $$
            dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr = - |F| |dr| cos(pi) = |Fdr|,
            $$



            which is a positive number.



            Let us now take situation in which the unit positive charge is moved from $mathbfr$ towards a negative charge , then again $mathbfdr$ is a decrement in $r$ and its $-mathbfdr$.



            In this case the work done will be $dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr$,
            where $mathbfF$ is now radially inward and $mathbfdr$ is a decrement so thath the angle between them is zero.



            Thereby $W$ will be negative and such negative work is being done by the field rather than the external agency.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            "we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction."



            I think you are not considering the displacement as a vector- suppose one is at a position $mathbfr$ and moves a unit positive charge towards the other positive charge;
            then his differential element is $- mathbfdr$ (a decrement in r)
            so the work done, $F dr$,
            becomes equivalent to $- mathbfFcdot mathbfdr$ and the angle between $mathbfF$ and $mathbfdr$ is $pi$ as they are just opposite to each other.



            Or, say, $mathbfF$ is radially outward and $mathbfdr$ is inward. In this case the work done



            $$
            dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr = - |F| |dr| cos(pi) = |Fdr|,
            $$



            which is a positive number.



            Let us now take situation in which the unit positive charge is moved from $mathbfr$ towards a negative charge , then again $mathbfdr$ is a decrement in $r$ and its $-mathbfdr$.



            In this case the work done will be $dw = - mathbfF cdot mathbfdr$,
            where $mathbfF$ is now radially inward and $mathbfdr$ is a decrement so thath the angle between them is zero.



            Thereby $W$ will be negative and such negative work is being done by the field rather than the external agency.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited May 20 at 11:30









            Kyle Kanos

            21.8k115195




            21.8k115195










            answered May 19 at 20:05









            drvrmdrvrm

            1,313614




            1,313614











            • $begingroup$
              but the F is here represents the applied force and the displacement is in the same direction of the applied force, so how can be the angle between them is pi?
              $endgroup$
              – Hawkingo
              May 22 at 0:21










            • $begingroup$
              @Hawkingo Suppose an external agent is slowly moving the unit charge from a point a to b inward and he is just holding the charge against the force F-outward then the angle between displacement and force should be pi...
              $endgroup$
              – drvrm
              May 22 at 10:56
















            • $begingroup$
              but the F is here represents the applied force and the displacement is in the same direction of the applied force, so how can be the angle between them is pi?
              $endgroup$
              – Hawkingo
              May 22 at 0:21










            • $begingroup$
              @Hawkingo Suppose an external agent is slowly moving the unit charge from a point a to b inward and he is just holding the charge against the force F-outward then the angle between displacement and force should be pi...
              $endgroup$
              – drvrm
              May 22 at 10:56















            $begingroup$
            but the F is here represents the applied force and the displacement is in the same direction of the applied force, so how can be the angle between them is pi?
            $endgroup$
            – Hawkingo
            May 22 at 0:21




            $begingroup$
            but the F is here represents the applied force and the displacement is in the same direction of the applied force, so how can be the angle between them is pi?
            $endgroup$
            – Hawkingo
            May 22 at 0:21












            $begingroup$
            @Hawkingo Suppose an external agent is slowly moving the unit charge from a point a to b inward and he is just holding the charge against the force F-outward then the angle between displacement and force should be pi...
            $endgroup$
            – drvrm
            May 22 at 10:56




            $begingroup$
            @Hawkingo Suppose an external agent is slowly moving the unit charge from a point a to b inward and he is just holding the charge against the force F-outward then the angle between displacement and force should be pi...
            $endgroup$
            – drvrm
            May 22 at 10:56











            3












            $begingroup$

            It is a matter of who is doing the work. We are often interested in experiments where the work is done by the experimenter. In the case that you are mentioning, the experimenter has to apply force against the force of repulsion between the particles to bring two positively charged objects at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of the force of the experimenter is the same as the direction of the displacement and therefore the work done is positive. Reverse holds for the oppositely charged particles. The particles are trying to pull each other together and the experimenter has to apply force to keep them at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of force and displacement wrt to the experimenter is opposite.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$

















              3












              $begingroup$

              It is a matter of who is doing the work. We are often interested in experiments where the work is done by the experimenter. In the case that you are mentioning, the experimenter has to apply force against the force of repulsion between the particles to bring two positively charged objects at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of the force of the experimenter is the same as the direction of the displacement and therefore the work done is positive. Reverse holds for the oppositely charged particles. The particles are trying to pull each other together and the experimenter has to apply force to keep them at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of force and displacement wrt to the experimenter is opposite.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$















                3












                3








                3





                $begingroup$

                It is a matter of who is doing the work. We are often interested in experiments where the work is done by the experimenter. In the case that you are mentioning, the experimenter has to apply force against the force of repulsion between the particles to bring two positively charged objects at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of the force of the experimenter is the same as the direction of the displacement and therefore the work done is positive. Reverse holds for the oppositely charged particles. The particles are trying to pull each other together and the experimenter has to apply force to keep them at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of force and displacement wrt to the experimenter is opposite.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                It is a matter of who is doing the work. We are often interested in experiments where the work is done by the experimenter. In the case that you are mentioning, the experimenter has to apply force against the force of repulsion between the particles to bring two positively charged objects at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of the force of the experimenter is the same as the direction of the displacement and therefore the work done is positive. Reverse holds for the oppositely charged particles. The particles are trying to pull each other together and the experimenter has to apply force to keep them at a finite distance. Therefore the direction of force and displacement wrt to the experimenter is opposite.







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered May 19 at 19:07









                nGlacTOwnSnGlacTOwnS

                368213




                368213





















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    Remember that work is defined as $W=vecFcdot vecx$ so only the angle between force and displacement matters not the sign convention (in the one-dimensional case). $dr$ is negative means that $r$ is decreasing and the positive direction here is taken in the direction away from the other charge and the work done by an external force is considered so force and displacement are in opposite direction and hence the work done (by external agent) is negative.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$

















                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      Remember that work is defined as $W=vecFcdot vecx$ so only the angle between force and displacement matters not the sign convention (in the one-dimensional case). $dr$ is negative means that $r$ is decreasing and the positive direction here is taken in the direction away from the other charge and the work done by an external force is considered so force and displacement are in opposite direction and hence the work done (by external agent) is negative.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$















                        2












                        2








                        2





                        $begingroup$

                        Remember that work is defined as $W=vecFcdot vecx$ so only the angle between force and displacement matters not the sign convention (in the one-dimensional case). $dr$ is negative means that $r$ is decreasing and the positive direction here is taken in the direction away from the other charge and the work done by an external force is considered so force and displacement are in opposite direction and hence the work done (by external agent) is negative.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$



                        Remember that work is defined as $W=vecFcdot vecx$ so only the angle between force and displacement matters not the sign convention (in the one-dimensional case). $dr$ is negative means that $r$ is decreasing and the positive direction here is taken in the direction away from the other charge and the work done by an external force is considered so force and displacement are in opposite direction and hence the work done (by external agent) is negative.







                        share|cite|improve this answer












                        share|cite|improve this answer



                        share|cite|improve this answer










                        answered May 19 at 19:13









                        RandomRandom

                        534




                        534





















                            1












                            $begingroup$

                            In the end this depends on the context. Are you asking "How much work did the system do?" or are you asking "How much work was applied to the system?". The former is really only useful when your system is some kind of motor / energy source, where you are looking at (one form of) energy flowing into a different system. The latter framing is how we usually talk in pure physics considerations. The idea here is that the work should be positive when the energy in the system increases and negative when it decreases.




                            Let's adopt the latter convention and apply it to your example: We have one positive charge $A$ "nailed to" the origin of our coordinate system and a negative one, $B$, at infinity. We say that $B$ has the potential energy $E_0 = 0,mathrm J$. Since opposite charges attract, $B$ will naturally fall toward $A$, so its potential energy has to decrease to some negative value $E_1$ when being moved to a new position at a finite distance from $A$. The work you are looking for is just $W = E_1$ here (which is negative).



                            Remember that we are only considering transitions between static states of the system here, i.e. no kinetic energies. You could say we want to move $B$ towards $A$ at an infinitely small velocity. In order to do that, we have to work against the charge's natural drive to fall towards $A$, so the force "we" are applying is opposite to the direction of movement.






                            share|cite|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$

















                              1












                              $begingroup$

                              In the end this depends on the context. Are you asking "How much work did the system do?" or are you asking "How much work was applied to the system?". The former is really only useful when your system is some kind of motor / energy source, where you are looking at (one form of) energy flowing into a different system. The latter framing is how we usually talk in pure physics considerations. The idea here is that the work should be positive when the energy in the system increases and negative when it decreases.




                              Let's adopt the latter convention and apply it to your example: We have one positive charge $A$ "nailed to" the origin of our coordinate system and a negative one, $B$, at infinity. We say that $B$ has the potential energy $E_0 = 0,mathrm J$. Since opposite charges attract, $B$ will naturally fall toward $A$, so its potential energy has to decrease to some negative value $E_1$ when being moved to a new position at a finite distance from $A$. The work you are looking for is just $W = E_1$ here (which is negative).



                              Remember that we are only considering transitions between static states of the system here, i.e. no kinetic energies. You could say we want to move $B$ towards $A$ at an infinitely small velocity. In order to do that, we have to work against the charge's natural drive to fall towards $A$, so the force "we" are applying is opposite to the direction of movement.






                              share|cite|improve this answer











                              $endgroup$















                                1












                                1








                                1





                                $begingroup$

                                In the end this depends on the context. Are you asking "How much work did the system do?" or are you asking "How much work was applied to the system?". The former is really only useful when your system is some kind of motor / energy source, where you are looking at (one form of) energy flowing into a different system. The latter framing is how we usually talk in pure physics considerations. The idea here is that the work should be positive when the energy in the system increases and negative when it decreases.




                                Let's adopt the latter convention and apply it to your example: We have one positive charge $A$ "nailed to" the origin of our coordinate system and a negative one, $B$, at infinity. We say that $B$ has the potential energy $E_0 = 0,mathrm J$. Since opposite charges attract, $B$ will naturally fall toward $A$, so its potential energy has to decrease to some negative value $E_1$ when being moved to a new position at a finite distance from $A$. The work you are looking for is just $W = E_1$ here (which is negative).



                                Remember that we are only considering transitions between static states of the system here, i.e. no kinetic energies. You could say we want to move $B$ towards $A$ at an infinitely small velocity. In order to do that, we have to work against the charge's natural drive to fall towards $A$, so the force "we" are applying is opposite to the direction of movement.






                                share|cite|improve this answer











                                $endgroup$



                                In the end this depends on the context. Are you asking "How much work did the system do?" or are you asking "How much work was applied to the system?". The former is really only useful when your system is some kind of motor / energy source, where you are looking at (one form of) energy flowing into a different system. The latter framing is how we usually talk in pure physics considerations. The idea here is that the work should be positive when the energy in the system increases and negative when it decreases.




                                Let's adopt the latter convention and apply it to your example: We have one positive charge $A$ "nailed to" the origin of our coordinate system and a negative one, $B$, at infinity. We say that $B$ has the potential energy $E_0 = 0,mathrm J$. Since opposite charges attract, $B$ will naturally fall toward $A$, so its potential energy has to decrease to some negative value $E_1$ when being moved to a new position at a finite distance from $A$. The work you are looking for is just $W = E_1$ here (which is negative).



                                Remember that we are only considering transitions between static states of the system here, i.e. no kinetic energies. You could say we want to move $B$ towards $A$ at an infinitely small velocity. In order to do that, we have to work against the charge's natural drive to fall towards $A$, so the force "we" are applying is opposite to the direction of movement.







                                share|cite|improve this answer














                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                share|cite|improve this answer








                                edited May 19 at 19:38

























                                answered May 19 at 19:24









                                schtandardschtandard

                                27615




                                27615





















                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



                                    What makes you think the work done is negative?



                                    If the electric field is bringing opposite charges together the electric field is doing positive work on each causing each to lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The force the field applies to each charge is in the same direction as their displacement.



                                    The gravity analogy is the gravitational field doing work on a falling object. The direction of the force of gravity is the same as the displacement and the object loses potential energy and gains an equal amount of kinetic energy.



                                    On the other hand, if the charges are initially close together and you want to separate them (move them apart), then an external agent is needed to do work positive work to separate them applying a force equal in magnitude to the opposing electrical force (thus moving the charge at constant velocity). However at the same time the external force does positive work on the charges, the electric field does an equal amount of negative work taking the energy away from the charge and storing it as electrical potential energy in the charge/electric field system.



                                    The gravity analogy is when you apply an upward force equal to gravity to raise an object a height $h$. You (the external agent) does positive work on the object while gravity does an equal amount of negative work (the force of gravity being opposite to the displacement), taking the energy away from the object and storing it as gravitational potential energy of the object/earth system.



                                    Hope this helps.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$

















                                      0












                                      $begingroup$

                                      we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



                                      What makes you think the work done is negative?



                                      If the electric field is bringing opposite charges together the electric field is doing positive work on each causing each to lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The force the field applies to each charge is in the same direction as their displacement.



                                      The gravity analogy is the gravitational field doing work on a falling object. The direction of the force of gravity is the same as the displacement and the object loses potential energy and gains an equal amount of kinetic energy.



                                      On the other hand, if the charges are initially close together and you want to separate them (move them apart), then an external agent is needed to do work positive work to separate them applying a force equal in magnitude to the opposing electrical force (thus moving the charge at constant velocity). However at the same time the external force does positive work on the charges, the electric field does an equal amount of negative work taking the energy away from the charge and storing it as electrical potential energy in the charge/electric field system.



                                      The gravity analogy is when you apply an upward force equal to gravity to raise an object a height $h$. You (the external agent) does positive work on the object while gravity does an equal amount of negative work (the force of gravity being opposite to the displacement), taking the energy away from the object and storing it as gravitational potential energy of the object/earth system.



                                      Hope this helps.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$















                                        0












                                        0








                                        0





                                        $begingroup$

                                        we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



                                        What makes you think the work done is negative?



                                        If the electric field is bringing opposite charges together the electric field is doing positive work on each causing each to lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The force the field applies to each charge is in the same direction as their displacement.



                                        The gravity analogy is the gravitational field doing work on a falling object. The direction of the force of gravity is the same as the displacement and the object loses potential energy and gains an equal amount of kinetic energy.



                                        On the other hand, if the charges are initially close together and you want to separate them (move them apart), then an external agent is needed to do work positive work to separate them applying a force equal in magnitude to the opposing electrical force (thus moving the charge at constant velocity). However at the same time the external force does positive work on the charges, the electric field does an equal amount of negative work taking the energy away from the charge and storing it as electrical potential energy in the charge/electric field system.



                                        The gravity analogy is when you apply an upward force equal to gravity to raise an object a height $h$. You (the external agent) does positive work on the object while gravity does an equal amount of negative work (the force of gravity being opposite to the displacement), taking the energy away from the object and storing it as gravitational potential energy of the object/earth system.



                                        Hope this helps.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$



                                        we know that if the applied force is in the direction of the displacement then work done is positive.But in case of bringing 2 opposite charges from infinite to a certain distance,the work done is negative even the force and the displacement of the charge is in the same direction.



                                        What makes you think the work done is negative?



                                        If the electric field is bringing opposite charges together the electric field is doing positive work on each causing each to lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The force the field applies to each charge is in the same direction as their displacement.



                                        The gravity analogy is the gravitational field doing work on a falling object. The direction of the force of gravity is the same as the displacement and the object loses potential energy and gains an equal amount of kinetic energy.



                                        On the other hand, if the charges are initially close together and you want to separate them (move them apart), then an external agent is needed to do work positive work to separate them applying a force equal in magnitude to the opposing electrical force (thus moving the charge at constant velocity). However at the same time the external force does positive work on the charges, the electric field does an equal amount of negative work taking the energy away from the charge and storing it as electrical potential energy in the charge/electric field system.



                                        The gravity analogy is when you apply an upward force equal to gravity to raise an object a height $h$. You (the external agent) does positive work on the object while gravity does an equal amount of negative work (the force of gravity being opposite to the displacement), taking the energy away from the object and storing it as gravitational potential energy of the object/earth system.



                                        Hope this helps.







                                        share|cite|improve this answer












                                        share|cite|improve this answer



                                        share|cite|improve this answer










                                        answered May 19 at 20:18









                                        Bob DBob D

                                        7,3263624




                                        7,3263624





















                                            0












                                            $begingroup$

                                            Assume that you have two point charges $1$ and $2$ and the force on charge $2$ due to charge $1$ is $vec F(r)_text2 due to 1 = F(r) _text2 due to 1,hat r $ where $F(r)_text2 due to 1$ is the component of the force in the $hat r$ direction, pointing away from charge $1$.



                                            To move charge $2$ an external force $vec F(r)_rm external = F(r)_rm external ,hat r$ must be applied where $vec F(r)_rm external + vec F(r)_text1 due to 2=0 Rightarrow F(r)_rm external = -F(r)_text1 due to 2$.



                                            Suppose that the external force causes a small displacement of charge $2$ equal to $Delta vec r = (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r$



                                            The work done by the external force is approximately equal to



                                            $vec F_rm external(r_rm initial) cdot Delta vec r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) hat r cdot (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) times (r_rm final - r_rm initial)$



                                            This a general result and has made no assumption about the sign of the charges and the displacement of charge $2$.



                                            Using this relationship it is easy to answer your question.



                                            If the two charges are both positive then $F_rm external(r_rm initial)$ is negative.

                                            Bringing charge $2$ closer to charge $1$ means that $r_rm final < r_rm initial$ and so $r_rm final - r_rm initial$ is negative.



                                            So the work done is the product of two negative quantities ie positive.



                                            With the external force being a function of position the work done can be written as



                                            $$int^r_final_r_rm initial vec F(r)_rm external cdot dvec r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external,hat r cdot dr ,hat r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external, dr$$



                                            with the sign of $dr$ being dictated by the limits of integration.




                                            Within this site there are a number of questions about using the integral to find the work done and getting the wrong sign for the answer.

                                            Almost all the errors are due to using $-dr$ instead of $dr$ within the integral and/or including $cos pi$ when evaluating the dot product, eg link 1, link 2, etc.






                                            share|cite|improve this answer









                                            $endgroup$

















                                              0












                                              $begingroup$

                                              Assume that you have two point charges $1$ and $2$ and the force on charge $2$ due to charge $1$ is $vec F(r)_text2 due to 1 = F(r) _text2 due to 1,hat r $ where $F(r)_text2 due to 1$ is the component of the force in the $hat r$ direction, pointing away from charge $1$.



                                              To move charge $2$ an external force $vec F(r)_rm external = F(r)_rm external ,hat r$ must be applied where $vec F(r)_rm external + vec F(r)_text1 due to 2=0 Rightarrow F(r)_rm external = -F(r)_text1 due to 2$.



                                              Suppose that the external force causes a small displacement of charge $2$ equal to $Delta vec r = (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r$



                                              The work done by the external force is approximately equal to



                                              $vec F_rm external(r_rm initial) cdot Delta vec r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) hat r cdot (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) times (r_rm final - r_rm initial)$



                                              This a general result and has made no assumption about the sign of the charges and the displacement of charge $2$.



                                              Using this relationship it is easy to answer your question.



                                              If the two charges are both positive then $F_rm external(r_rm initial)$ is negative.

                                              Bringing charge $2$ closer to charge $1$ means that $r_rm final < r_rm initial$ and so $r_rm final - r_rm initial$ is negative.



                                              So the work done is the product of two negative quantities ie positive.



                                              With the external force being a function of position the work done can be written as



                                              $$int^r_final_r_rm initial vec F(r)_rm external cdot dvec r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external,hat r cdot dr ,hat r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external, dr$$



                                              with the sign of $dr$ being dictated by the limits of integration.




                                              Within this site there are a number of questions about using the integral to find the work done and getting the wrong sign for the answer.

                                              Almost all the errors are due to using $-dr$ instead of $dr$ within the integral and/or including $cos pi$ when evaluating the dot product, eg link 1, link 2, etc.






                                              share|cite|improve this answer









                                              $endgroup$















                                                0












                                                0








                                                0





                                                $begingroup$

                                                Assume that you have two point charges $1$ and $2$ and the force on charge $2$ due to charge $1$ is $vec F(r)_text2 due to 1 = F(r) _text2 due to 1,hat r $ where $F(r)_text2 due to 1$ is the component of the force in the $hat r$ direction, pointing away from charge $1$.



                                                To move charge $2$ an external force $vec F(r)_rm external = F(r)_rm external ,hat r$ must be applied where $vec F(r)_rm external + vec F(r)_text1 due to 2=0 Rightarrow F(r)_rm external = -F(r)_text1 due to 2$.



                                                Suppose that the external force causes a small displacement of charge $2$ equal to $Delta vec r = (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r$



                                                The work done by the external force is approximately equal to



                                                $vec F_rm external(r_rm initial) cdot Delta vec r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) hat r cdot (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) times (r_rm final - r_rm initial)$



                                                This a general result and has made no assumption about the sign of the charges and the displacement of charge $2$.



                                                Using this relationship it is easy to answer your question.



                                                If the two charges are both positive then $F_rm external(r_rm initial)$ is negative.

                                                Bringing charge $2$ closer to charge $1$ means that $r_rm final < r_rm initial$ and so $r_rm final - r_rm initial$ is negative.



                                                So the work done is the product of two negative quantities ie positive.



                                                With the external force being a function of position the work done can be written as



                                                $$int^r_final_r_rm initial vec F(r)_rm external cdot dvec r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external,hat r cdot dr ,hat r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external, dr$$



                                                with the sign of $dr$ being dictated by the limits of integration.




                                                Within this site there are a number of questions about using the integral to find the work done and getting the wrong sign for the answer.

                                                Almost all the errors are due to using $-dr$ instead of $dr$ within the integral and/or including $cos pi$ when evaluating the dot product, eg link 1, link 2, etc.






                                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                                $endgroup$



                                                Assume that you have two point charges $1$ and $2$ and the force on charge $2$ due to charge $1$ is $vec F(r)_text2 due to 1 = F(r) _text2 due to 1,hat r $ where $F(r)_text2 due to 1$ is the component of the force in the $hat r$ direction, pointing away from charge $1$.



                                                To move charge $2$ an external force $vec F(r)_rm external = F(r)_rm external ,hat r$ must be applied where $vec F(r)_rm external + vec F(r)_text1 due to 2=0 Rightarrow F(r)_rm external = -F(r)_text1 due to 2$.



                                                Suppose that the external force causes a small displacement of charge $2$ equal to $Delta vec r = (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r$



                                                The work done by the external force is approximately equal to



                                                $vec F_rm external(r_rm initial) cdot Delta vec r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) hat r cdot (r_rm final - r_rm initial),hat r = F_rm external(r_rm initial) times (r_rm final - r_rm initial)$



                                                This a general result and has made no assumption about the sign of the charges and the displacement of charge $2$.



                                                Using this relationship it is easy to answer your question.



                                                If the two charges are both positive then $F_rm external(r_rm initial)$ is negative.

                                                Bringing charge $2$ closer to charge $1$ means that $r_rm final < r_rm initial$ and so $r_rm final - r_rm initial$ is negative.



                                                So the work done is the product of two negative quantities ie positive.



                                                With the external force being a function of position the work done can be written as



                                                $$int^r_final_r_rm initial vec F(r)_rm external cdot dvec r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external,hat r cdot dr ,hat r = int^r_final_r_rm initial F(r)_rm external, dr$$



                                                with the sign of $dr$ being dictated by the limits of integration.




                                                Within this site there are a number of questions about using the integral to find the work done and getting the wrong sign for the answer.

                                                Almost all the errors are due to using $-dr$ instead of $dr$ within the integral and/or including $cos pi$ when evaluating the dot product, eg link 1, link 2, etc.







                                                share|cite|improve this answer












                                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                                answered May 19 at 23:45









                                                FarcherFarcher

                                                53k341111




                                                53k341111



























                                                    draft saved

                                                    draft discarded
















































                                                    Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!


                                                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                                    But avoid


                                                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                                                    Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                                                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                                    draft saved


                                                    draft discarded














                                                    StackExchange.ready(
                                                    function ()
                                                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f481126%2fwhy-the-work-done-is-positive-when-bringing-2-opposite-charges-together%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                                                    );

                                                    Post as a guest















                                                    Required, but never shown





















































                                                    Required, but never shown














                                                    Required, but never shown












                                                    Required, but never shown







                                                    Required, but never shown

































                                                    Required, but never shown














                                                    Required, but never shown












                                                    Required, but never shown







                                                    Required, but never shown







                                                    Popular posts from this blog

                                                    Wikipedia:Vital articles Мазмуну Biography - Өмүр баян Philosophy and psychology - Философия жана психология Religion - Дин Social sciences - Коомдук илимдер Language and literature - Тил жана адабият Science - Илим Technology - Технология Arts and recreation - Искусство жана эс алуу History and geography - Тарых жана география Навигация менюсу

                                                    Bruxelas-Capital Índice Historia | Composición | Situación lingüística | Clima | Cidades irmandadas | Notas | Véxase tamén | Menú de navegacióneO uso das linguas en Bruxelas e a situación do neerlandés"Rexión de Bruxelas Capital"o orixinalSitio da rexiónPáxina de Bruselas no sitio da Oficina de Promoción Turística de Valonia e BruxelasMapa Interactivo da Rexión de Bruxelas-CapitaleeWorldCat332144929079854441105155190212ID28008674080552-90000 0001 0666 3698n94104302ID540940339365017018237

                                                    What should I write in an apology letter, since I have decided not to join a company after accepting an offer letterShould I keep looking after accepting a job offer?What should I do when I've been verbally told I would get an offer letter, but still haven't gotten one after 4 weeks?Do I accept an offer from a company that I am not likely to join?New job hasn't confirmed starting date and I want to give current employer as much notice as possibleHow should I address my manager in my resignation letter?HR delayed background verification, now jobless as resignedNo email communication after accepting a formal written offer. How should I phrase the call?What should I do if after receiving a verbal offer letter I am informed that my written job offer is put on hold due to some internal issues?Should I inform the current employer that I am about to resign within 1-2 weeks since I have signed the offer letter and waiting for visa?What company will do, if I send their offer letter to another company