Are we obligated to aspire to be Talmidei Chachamim?Semicha and Gneivas DaasTalmid Chacham todayTalmud Torah or Chesed more important?What are the main source texts for the chavruta and teacher-student models in Jewish learning?Are cholim obligated to please their wives?Are there recordings of Rav Elyashiv ztz'l learning with his unique melody?Why are women obligated in maggid?Are women obligated to say the morning blessings?are you obligated to give testimony if you know you are pasul l'eidus?In how many of the 613 mitzvot are women obligated?Are we morally obligated to help the poor?Are we allowed to assume that a Rabbi may have not thought of something?Are the children obligated to [care to] heal their parents?
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Are we obligated to aspire to be Talmidei Chachamim?
Semicha and Gneivas DaasTalmid Chacham todayTalmud Torah or Chesed more important?What are the main source texts for the chavruta and teacher-student models in Jewish learning?Are cholim obligated to please their wives?Are there recordings of Rav Elyashiv ztz'l learning with his unique melody?Why are women obligated in maggid?Are women obligated to say the morning blessings?are you obligated to give testimony if you know you are pasul l'eidus?In how many of the 613 mitzvot are women obligated?Are we morally obligated to help the poor?Are we allowed to assume that a Rabbi may have not thought of something?Are the children obligated to [care to] heal their parents?
The talmud in general seems to distinguish between different kinds of people in certain kinds of halacha. For example, Bava Metzia 23b tells us that a rabbi is allowed to lie for three things, implying a distinction in standards of truthfulness, even if the direction is ambiguous.
Though it is clear that everyone has an obligation to learn, is there a corresponding obligation to aspire to become a rabbi?
This question is based on two assumptions:
- That the Talmud uses the words talmid chacham, Rabbi, and disciple interchangeably for these halachic distinctions.
- That being held to a different halachic standard is an indication of superiority, and that we are encouraged to be the best we can be.
halacha torah-study rabbis
|
show 6 more comments
The talmud in general seems to distinguish between different kinds of people in certain kinds of halacha. For example, Bava Metzia 23b tells us that a rabbi is allowed to lie for three things, implying a distinction in standards of truthfulness, even if the direction is ambiguous.
Though it is clear that everyone has an obligation to learn, is there a corresponding obligation to aspire to become a rabbi?
This question is based on two assumptions:
- That the Talmud uses the words talmid chacham, Rabbi, and disciple interchangeably for these halachic distinctions.
- That being held to a different halachic standard is an indication of superiority, and that we are encouraged to be the best we can be.
halacha torah-study rabbis
Even assuming that your assumptions are correct, #2 does not necessarily imply what you think it does. Just because one has to be the best he can be doesn’t mean that the best for him is to be a Rabbi. (Putting aside the many distinctions between a Rabbi today and a Rabbi in the times of the Gemara.)
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:02
Related to your assumptions: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/86208 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14559
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:04
I thought everyone is allowed to lie about their bed, their hosts, and [whatever the third thing is I forget].
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:28
related Talmud Tora or Chessed: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/87582/…
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 15:37
@DoubleAA That is from BM 23b, which seems to only refer to rabbis. Implication as I see it is that either non rabbis can lie about anything (as long as it doesnt cause harm to others) or that only rabbis have the right to lie and only in those three areas
– SophArch
Apr 30 at 15:56
|
show 6 more comments
The talmud in general seems to distinguish between different kinds of people in certain kinds of halacha. For example, Bava Metzia 23b tells us that a rabbi is allowed to lie for three things, implying a distinction in standards of truthfulness, even if the direction is ambiguous.
Though it is clear that everyone has an obligation to learn, is there a corresponding obligation to aspire to become a rabbi?
This question is based on two assumptions:
- That the Talmud uses the words talmid chacham, Rabbi, and disciple interchangeably for these halachic distinctions.
- That being held to a different halachic standard is an indication of superiority, and that we are encouraged to be the best we can be.
halacha torah-study rabbis
The talmud in general seems to distinguish between different kinds of people in certain kinds of halacha. For example, Bava Metzia 23b tells us that a rabbi is allowed to lie for three things, implying a distinction in standards of truthfulness, even if the direction is ambiguous.
Though it is clear that everyone has an obligation to learn, is there a corresponding obligation to aspire to become a rabbi?
This question is based on two assumptions:
- That the Talmud uses the words talmid chacham, Rabbi, and disciple interchangeably for these halachic distinctions.
- That being held to a different halachic standard is an indication of superiority, and that we are encouraged to be the best we can be.
halacha torah-study rabbis
halacha torah-study rabbis
edited Apr 30 at 14:56
alicht
3,6601636
3,6601636
asked Apr 30 at 14:43
SophArchSophArch
21115
21115
Even assuming that your assumptions are correct, #2 does not necessarily imply what you think it does. Just because one has to be the best he can be doesn’t mean that the best for him is to be a Rabbi. (Putting aside the many distinctions between a Rabbi today and a Rabbi in the times of the Gemara.)
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:02
Related to your assumptions: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/86208 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14559
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:04
I thought everyone is allowed to lie about their bed, their hosts, and [whatever the third thing is I forget].
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:28
related Talmud Tora or Chessed: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/87582/…
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 15:37
@DoubleAA That is from BM 23b, which seems to only refer to rabbis. Implication as I see it is that either non rabbis can lie about anything (as long as it doesnt cause harm to others) or that only rabbis have the right to lie and only in those three areas
– SophArch
Apr 30 at 15:56
|
show 6 more comments
Even assuming that your assumptions are correct, #2 does not necessarily imply what you think it does. Just because one has to be the best he can be doesn’t mean that the best for him is to be a Rabbi. (Putting aside the many distinctions between a Rabbi today and a Rabbi in the times of the Gemara.)
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:02
Related to your assumptions: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/86208 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14559
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:04
I thought everyone is allowed to lie about their bed, their hosts, and [whatever the third thing is I forget].
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:28
related Talmud Tora or Chessed: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/87582/…
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 15:37
@DoubleAA That is from BM 23b, which seems to only refer to rabbis. Implication as I see it is that either non rabbis can lie about anything (as long as it doesnt cause harm to others) or that only rabbis have the right to lie and only in those three areas
– SophArch
Apr 30 at 15:56
Even assuming that your assumptions are correct, #2 does not necessarily imply what you think it does. Just because one has to be the best he can be doesn’t mean that the best for him is to be a Rabbi. (Putting aside the many distinctions between a Rabbi today and a Rabbi in the times of the Gemara.)
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:02
Even assuming that your assumptions are correct, #2 does not necessarily imply what you think it does. Just because one has to be the best he can be doesn’t mean that the best for him is to be a Rabbi. (Putting aside the many distinctions between a Rabbi today and a Rabbi in the times of the Gemara.)
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:02
Related to your assumptions: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/86208 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14559
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:04
Related to your assumptions: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/86208 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14559
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:04
I thought everyone is allowed to lie about their bed, their hosts, and [whatever the third thing is I forget].
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:28
I thought everyone is allowed to lie about their bed, their hosts, and [whatever the third thing is I forget].
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:28
related Talmud Tora or Chessed: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/87582/…
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 15:37
related Talmud Tora or Chessed: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/87582/…
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 15:37
@DoubleAA That is from BM 23b, which seems to only refer to rabbis. Implication as I see it is that either non rabbis can lie about anything (as long as it doesnt cause harm to others) or that only rabbis have the right to lie and only in those three areas
– SophArch
Apr 30 at 15:56
@DoubleAA That is from BM 23b, which seems to only refer to rabbis. Implication as I see it is that either non rabbis can lie about anything (as long as it doesnt cause harm to others) or that only rabbis have the right to lie and only in those three areas
– SophArch
Apr 30 at 15:56
|
show 6 more comments
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
R' Boruch Ber Lebowitz [Birchas Shmuel, Kiddushin #27] writes that the obligation of ושננתם לבנך is "לראות שבנו ובן בנו יהיו ת"ח וגאונים בתורה".
1
It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 16:25
add a comment |
Shulchan Aruch Harav (Talmud Torah, 1):
האב הוא חייב ללמד לבנו בעצמו או למצוא לו מלמד שילמדנו כל התורה כולה
ואם אינו מוצא בחנם אף על פי שהוא בעצמו אינו יכול ללמדו ואפילו אינו
יודע ללמוד כלל בעצמו חייב הוא מן התורה לשכור לו מלמד שילמדנו היטב לידע
כל התורה שבכתב ושבע”פ כולה.
(Ibid, 5)
ואל יאמר האדם איך אפשר ללמוד כל התורה שבעל פה כולה הרי התורה אין לה קץ
ותכלית כמ”ש לכל תכלה ראיתי קץ רחבה מצותך מאד ונאמר ארוכה מארץ מדה וגו’
כי באמת ההלכות הנגלות לנו ולבנינו יש להן קץ ותכלית ומספר וכן המדרשים
שנתגלו לנו. רק שהתורה מצד עצמה אין קץ ותכלית אפילו לפשטי דרשותיה
הצפונים בה ורבי עקיבא היה דורש על כל קוץ וקוץ תילי תילים של הלכות ולא
הגיע לתכלית דרשותיה עדיין וכן אין קץ ותכלית לעומק טעמי ההלכות והפלפול
בטעמיהן ובדרשותיהן במדות שהתורה נדרשת ועל ידי זה יתחדשו ג”כ חידושי
הלכות לאין קץ ותכלית למי שזוכה לזה אחר שגמר תחלה כל התורה שבעל פה
המסורה לנו ונגלות לעין כל כמו שאמרו חכמים ליגמר אינש והדר ליסבר שהוא
עיון בעומק הטעמים וכמו שיתבאר:
Regarding how much time and effort this obligation compels, see Or Someach (Talmud Torah 1.4) and Birchas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27), who explain how this mitzva obligates in proportion to intellectual and emotional capabilities. (See also Ran in Nedarim 8a)
Aside from the obligation to learn the Torah (לימוד תורה), there is an obligation to know the entire Torah (ידיעת התורה). (See Ohr Yisrael from R' Yisroel Salanter #26).
As seen from the discussion in Kiddushin 29-30, כל התורה כולה means the Chumash and maybe Tanach, not Halachah - and that's how he starts. Then he switches strategy and expands it to include כל התורה שבע"פ and goes further and further by himself.
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 16:27
As far I could tell, this is only talking about the universal obligation to learn, and not about talmidei chachamim or rabbis at all. I see that people who are more capable should learn more, but I dont think that answers the question about status differentiation
– SophArch
May 3 at 18:26
@SophArch - The above proves that there is a universal obligation to be a talmid chacham.
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:41
I explained in comment on question why there is no status differentiation
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:42
@chortkov2 I am afraid I still don't understand. In your last comment on the question you seem to agree there is a distinction between "regular people" and "rabanan" that rabanan should be extra sensitive.
– SophArch
May 5 at 2:23
|
show 1 more comment
The Ksav Sofer (1815-1871)-- as quoted in this torchweb.org article (can't find his standalone commentary online)-- discusses this in his commentary to Bereishis 48:20:
... it is the obligation of every Jewish parent to teach his son Torah in the hope that he becomes a great Talmid Chacham which is the highest level to which a Jew can aspire - and if he doesn't succeed, he can always choose to be the doctor, lawyer, businessman, etc.
The Ksav Sofer continues:
For this reason, a Jewish parent blesses his son every Friday evening that he should grow up to be like Ephraim and Menasseh in that order, meaning that he should try to attain the highest level and to become a great Talmid Chacham like Ephraim, and if that doesn't work out, then he should strive to become a successful professional or businessman and a G-d-fearing Jew like Menasseh.
According to the Ksav Sofer, maybe not everyone should aspire to become a Rabbi but nonetheless everyone should aspire to be a Talmid Chacham.
1
Why shouldn't he aspire to be a Talmid Chacham AND a doctor? It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:54
@DoubleAA why not both? As R' Herschel Schachter says- one can be an "earner learner"
– alicht
Apr 30 at 15:58
Where are you getting the distinction between a rabbi and talmid chacham from?
– SophArch
May 1 at 13:22
@SophArch one can be a Talmid Chacham (lit. "smart student" ie- extremely knowledgeable in Jewish law) without being a Rabbi.
– alicht
May 1 at 14:35
@alicht yes, but I don't see the ksav sofer making that distinction in your answer. He seems to only be taking about being a Talmid chacham and that is the highest level
– SophArch
May 1 at 16:55
|
show 1 more comment
It greatly depends on how you define a Talmid Chacham - as opposed to Am Haaretz or as opposed to Ish Maaseh.
As opposed to Am Haaretz - it is a sure Mitzvah to excel in learning Torah and observing the commandments to the maximum extent possible. I don't think this needs clarification, see the other answer(s).
As opposed to Anshey Maaseh - I addressed this problem here. In short, there are two approaches, a) the Rabbis themselves want everybody to be a scholar, but b) they agree post-factum, that being a prominent Ish Maaseh - like devoting oneself to practical interpersonal Mitzvos, such as Tzdoko, Bikur Cholim, Kibud Av and more, is counted not less (and maybe even more) than being T"C.
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
R' Boruch Ber Lebowitz [Birchas Shmuel, Kiddushin #27] writes that the obligation of ושננתם לבנך is "לראות שבנו ובן בנו יהיו ת"ח וגאונים בתורה".
1
It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 16:25
add a comment |
R' Boruch Ber Lebowitz [Birchas Shmuel, Kiddushin #27] writes that the obligation of ושננתם לבנך is "לראות שבנו ובן בנו יהיו ת"ח וגאונים בתורה".
1
It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 16:25
add a comment |
R' Boruch Ber Lebowitz [Birchas Shmuel, Kiddushin #27] writes that the obligation of ושננתם לבנך is "לראות שבנו ובן בנו יהיו ת"ח וגאונים בתורה".
R' Boruch Ber Lebowitz [Birchas Shmuel, Kiddushin #27] writes that the obligation of ושננתם לבנך is "לראות שבנו ובן בנו יהיו ת"ח וגאונים בתורה".
answered Apr 30 at 16:21
chortkov2chortkov2
1,25417
1,25417
1
It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 16:25
add a comment |
1
It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 16:25
1
1
It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 16:25
It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 16:25
add a comment |
Shulchan Aruch Harav (Talmud Torah, 1):
האב הוא חייב ללמד לבנו בעצמו או למצוא לו מלמד שילמדנו כל התורה כולה
ואם אינו מוצא בחנם אף על פי שהוא בעצמו אינו יכול ללמדו ואפילו אינו
יודע ללמוד כלל בעצמו חייב הוא מן התורה לשכור לו מלמד שילמדנו היטב לידע
כל התורה שבכתב ושבע”פ כולה.
(Ibid, 5)
ואל יאמר האדם איך אפשר ללמוד כל התורה שבעל פה כולה הרי התורה אין לה קץ
ותכלית כמ”ש לכל תכלה ראיתי קץ רחבה מצותך מאד ונאמר ארוכה מארץ מדה וגו’
כי באמת ההלכות הנגלות לנו ולבנינו יש להן קץ ותכלית ומספר וכן המדרשים
שנתגלו לנו. רק שהתורה מצד עצמה אין קץ ותכלית אפילו לפשטי דרשותיה
הצפונים בה ורבי עקיבא היה דורש על כל קוץ וקוץ תילי תילים של הלכות ולא
הגיע לתכלית דרשותיה עדיין וכן אין קץ ותכלית לעומק טעמי ההלכות והפלפול
בטעמיהן ובדרשותיהן במדות שהתורה נדרשת ועל ידי זה יתחדשו ג”כ חידושי
הלכות לאין קץ ותכלית למי שזוכה לזה אחר שגמר תחלה כל התורה שבעל פה
המסורה לנו ונגלות לעין כל כמו שאמרו חכמים ליגמר אינש והדר ליסבר שהוא
עיון בעומק הטעמים וכמו שיתבאר:
Regarding how much time and effort this obligation compels, see Or Someach (Talmud Torah 1.4) and Birchas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27), who explain how this mitzva obligates in proportion to intellectual and emotional capabilities. (See also Ran in Nedarim 8a)
Aside from the obligation to learn the Torah (לימוד תורה), there is an obligation to know the entire Torah (ידיעת התורה). (See Ohr Yisrael from R' Yisroel Salanter #26).
As seen from the discussion in Kiddushin 29-30, כל התורה כולה means the Chumash and maybe Tanach, not Halachah - and that's how he starts. Then he switches strategy and expands it to include כל התורה שבע"פ and goes further and further by himself.
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 16:27
As far I could tell, this is only talking about the universal obligation to learn, and not about talmidei chachamim or rabbis at all. I see that people who are more capable should learn more, but I dont think that answers the question about status differentiation
– SophArch
May 3 at 18:26
@SophArch - The above proves that there is a universal obligation to be a talmid chacham.
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:41
I explained in comment on question why there is no status differentiation
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:42
@chortkov2 I am afraid I still don't understand. In your last comment on the question you seem to agree there is a distinction between "regular people" and "rabanan" that rabanan should be extra sensitive.
– SophArch
May 5 at 2:23
|
show 1 more comment
Shulchan Aruch Harav (Talmud Torah, 1):
האב הוא חייב ללמד לבנו בעצמו או למצוא לו מלמד שילמדנו כל התורה כולה
ואם אינו מוצא בחנם אף על פי שהוא בעצמו אינו יכול ללמדו ואפילו אינו
יודע ללמוד כלל בעצמו חייב הוא מן התורה לשכור לו מלמד שילמדנו היטב לידע
כל התורה שבכתב ושבע”פ כולה.
(Ibid, 5)
ואל יאמר האדם איך אפשר ללמוד כל התורה שבעל פה כולה הרי התורה אין לה קץ
ותכלית כמ”ש לכל תכלה ראיתי קץ רחבה מצותך מאד ונאמר ארוכה מארץ מדה וגו’
כי באמת ההלכות הנגלות לנו ולבנינו יש להן קץ ותכלית ומספר וכן המדרשים
שנתגלו לנו. רק שהתורה מצד עצמה אין קץ ותכלית אפילו לפשטי דרשותיה
הצפונים בה ורבי עקיבא היה דורש על כל קוץ וקוץ תילי תילים של הלכות ולא
הגיע לתכלית דרשותיה עדיין וכן אין קץ ותכלית לעומק טעמי ההלכות והפלפול
בטעמיהן ובדרשותיהן במדות שהתורה נדרשת ועל ידי זה יתחדשו ג”כ חידושי
הלכות לאין קץ ותכלית למי שזוכה לזה אחר שגמר תחלה כל התורה שבעל פה
המסורה לנו ונגלות לעין כל כמו שאמרו חכמים ליגמר אינש והדר ליסבר שהוא
עיון בעומק הטעמים וכמו שיתבאר:
Regarding how much time and effort this obligation compels, see Or Someach (Talmud Torah 1.4) and Birchas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27), who explain how this mitzva obligates in proportion to intellectual and emotional capabilities. (See also Ran in Nedarim 8a)
Aside from the obligation to learn the Torah (לימוד תורה), there is an obligation to know the entire Torah (ידיעת התורה). (See Ohr Yisrael from R' Yisroel Salanter #26).
As seen from the discussion in Kiddushin 29-30, כל התורה כולה means the Chumash and maybe Tanach, not Halachah - and that's how he starts. Then he switches strategy and expands it to include כל התורה שבע"פ and goes further and further by himself.
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 16:27
As far I could tell, this is only talking about the universal obligation to learn, and not about talmidei chachamim or rabbis at all. I see that people who are more capable should learn more, but I dont think that answers the question about status differentiation
– SophArch
May 3 at 18:26
@SophArch - The above proves that there is a universal obligation to be a talmid chacham.
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:41
I explained in comment on question why there is no status differentiation
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:42
@chortkov2 I am afraid I still don't understand. In your last comment on the question you seem to agree there is a distinction between "regular people" and "rabanan" that rabanan should be extra sensitive.
– SophArch
May 5 at 2:23
|
show 1 more comment
Shulchan Aruch Harav (Talmud Torah, 1):
האב הוא חייב ללמד לבנו בעצמו או למצוא לו מלמד שילמדנו כל התורה כולה
ואם אינו מוצא בחנם אף על פי שהוא בעצמו אינו יכול ללמדו ואפילו אינו
יודע ללמוד כלל בעצמו חייב הוא מן התורה לשכור לו מלמד שילמדנו היטב לידע
כל התורה שבכתב ושבע”פ כולה.
(Ibid, 5)
ואל יאמר האדם איך אפשר ללמוד כל התורה שבעל פה כולה הרי התורה אין לה קץ
ותכלית כמ”ש לכל תכלה ראיתי קץ רחבה מצותך מאד ונאמר ארוכה מארץ מדה וגו’
כי באמת ההלכות הנגלות לנו ולבנינו יש להן קץ ותכלית ומספר וכן המדרשים
שנתגלו לנו. רק שהתורה מצד עצמה אין קץ ותכלית אפילו לפשטי דרשותיה
הצפונים בה ורבי עקיבא היה דורש על כל קוץ וקוץ תילי תילים של הלכות ולא
הגיע לתכלית דרשותיה עדיין וכן אין קץ ותכלית לעומק טעמי ההלכות והפלפול
בטעמיהן ובדרשותיהן במדות שהתורה נדרשת ועל ידי זה יתחדשו ג”כ חידושי
הלכות לאין קץ ותכלית למי שזוכה לזה אחר שגמר תחלה כל התורה שבעל פה
המסורה לנו ונגלות לעין כל כמו שאמרו חכמים ליגמר אינש והדר ליסבר שהוא
עיון בעומק הטעמים וכמו שיתבאר:
Regarding how much time and effort this obligation compels, see Or Someach (Talmud Torah 1.4) and Birchas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27), who explain how this mitzva obligates in proportion to intellectual and emotional capabilities. (See also Ran in Nedarim 8a)
Aside from the obligation to learn the Torah (לימוד תורה), there is an obligation to know the entire Torah (ידיעת התורה). (See Ohr Yisrael from R' Yisroel Salanter #26).
Shulchan Aruch Harav (Talmud Torah, 1):
האב הוא חייב ללמד לבנו בעצמו או למצוא לו מלמד שילמדנו כל התורה כולה
ואם אינו מוצא בחנם אף על פי שהוא בעצמו אינו יכול ללמדו ואפילו אינו
יודע ללמוד כלל בעצמו חייב הוא מן התורה לשכור לו מלמד שילמדנו היטב לידע
כל התורה שבכתב ושבע”פ כולה.
(Ibid, 5)
ואל יאמר האדם איך אפשר ללמוד כל התורה שבעל פה כולה הרי התורה אין לה קץ
ותכלית כמ”ש לכל תכלה ראיתי קץ רחבה מצותך מאד ונאמר ארוכה מארץ מדה וגו’
כי באמת ההלכות הנגלות לנו ולבנינו יש להן קץ ותכלית ומספר וכן המדרשים
שנתגלו לנו. רק שהתורה מצד עצמה אין קץ ותכלית אפילו לפשטי דרשותיה
הצפונים בה ורבי עקיבא היה דורש על כל קוץ וקוץ תילי תילים של הלכות ולא
הגיע לתכלית דרשותיה עדיין וכן אין קץ ותכלית לעומק טעמי ההלכות והפלפול
בטעמיהן ובדרשותיהן במדות שהתורה נדרשת ועל ידי זה יתחדשו ג”כ חידושי
הלכות לאין קץ ותכלית למי שזוכה לזה אחר שגמר תחלה כל התורה שבעל פה
המסורה לנו ונגלות לעין כל כמו שאמרו חכמים ליגמר אינש והדר ליסבר שהוא
עיון בעומק הטעמים וכמו שיתבאר:
Regarding how much time and effort this obligation compels, see Or Someach (Talmud Torah 1.4) and Birchas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27), who explain how this mitzva obligates in proportion to intellectual and emotional capabilities. (See also Ran in Nedarim 8a)
Aside from the obligation to learn the Torah (לימוד תורה), there is an obligation to know the entire Torah (ידיעת התורה). (See Ohr Yisrael from R' Yisroel Salanter #26).
edited Apr 30 at 16:41
alicht
3,6601636
3,6601636
answered Apr 30 at 16:20
chortkov2chortkov2
1,25417
1,25417
As seen from the discussion in Kiddushin 29-30, כל התורה כולה means the Chumash and maybe Tanach, not Halachah - and that's how he starts. Then he switches strategy and expands it to include כל התורה שבע"פ and goes further and further by himself.
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 16:27
As far I could tell, this is only talking about the universal obligation to learn, and not about talmidei chachamim or rabbis at all. I see that people who are more capable should learn more, but I dont think that answers the question about status differentiation
– SophArch
May 3 at 18:26
@SophArch - The above proves that there is a universal obligation to be a talmid chacham.
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:41
I explained in comment on question why there is no status differentiation
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:42
@chortkov2 I am afraid I still don't understand. In your last comment on the question you seem to agree there is a distinction between "regular people" and "rabanan" that rabanan should be extra sensitive.
– SophArch
May 5 at 2:23
|
show 1 more comment
As seen from the discussion in Kiddushin 29-30, כל התורה כולה means the Chumash and maybe Tanach, not Halachah - and that's how he starts. Then he switches strategy and expands it to include כל התורה שבע"פ and goes further and further by himself.
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 16:27
As far I could tell, this is only talking about the universal obligation to learn, and not about talmidei chachamim or rabbis at all. I see that people who are more capable should learn more, but I dont think that answers the question about status differentiation
– SophArch
May 3 at 18:26
@SophArch - The above proves that there is a universal obligation to be a talmid chacham.
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:41
I explained in comment on question why there is no status differentiation
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:42
@chortkov2 I am afraid I still don't understand. In your last comment on the question you seem to agree there is a distinction between "regular people" and "rabanan" that rabanan should be extra sensitive.
– SophArch
May 5 at 2:23
As seen from the discussion in Kiddushin 29-30, כל התורה כולה means the Chumash and maybe Tanach, not Halachah - and that's how he starts. Then he switches strategy and expands it to include כל התורה שבע"פ and goes further and further by himself.
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 16:27
As seen from the discussion in Kiddushin 29-30, כל התורה כולה means the Chumash and maybe Tanach, not Halachah - and that's how he starts. Then he switches strategy and expands it to include כל התורה שבע"פ and goes further and further by himself.
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 16:27
As far I could tell, this is only talking about the universal obligation to learn, and not about talmidei chachamim or rabbis at all. I see that people who are more capable should learn more, but I dont think that answers the question about status differentiation
– SophArch
May 3 at 18:26
As far I could tell, this is only talking about the universal obligation to learn, and not about talmidei chachamim or rabbis at all. I see that people who are more capable should learn more, but I dont think that answers the question about status differentiation
– SophArch
May 3 at 18:26
@SophArch - The above proves that there is a universal obligation to be a talmid chacham.
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:41
@SophArch - The above proves that there is a universal obligation to be a talmid chacham.
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:41
I explained in comment on question why there is no status differentiation
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:42
I explained in comment on question why there is no status differentiation
– chortkov2
May 5 at 0:42
@chortkov2 I am afraid I still don't understand. In your last comment on the question you seem to agree there is a distinction between "regular people" and "rabanan" that rabanan should be extra sensitive.
– SophArch
May 5 at 2:23
@chortkov2 I am afraid I still don't understand. In your last comment on the question you seem to agree there is a distinction between "regular people" and "rabanan" that rabanan should be extra sensitive.
– SophArch
May 5 at 2:23
|
show 1 more comment
The Ksav Sofer (1815-1871)-- as quoted in this torchweb.org article (can't find his standalone commentary online)-- discusses this in his commentary to Bereishis 48:20:
... it is the obligation of every Jewish parent to teach his son Torah in the hope that he becomes a great Talmid Chacham which is the highest level to which a Jew can aspire - and if he doesn't succeed, he can always choose to be the doctor, lawyer, businessman, etc.
The Ksav Sofer continues:
For this reason, a Jewish parent blesses his son every Friday evening that he should grow up to be like Ephraim and Menasseh in that order, meaning that he should try to attain the highest level and to become a great Talmid Chacham like Ephraim, and if that doesn't work out, then he should strive to become a successful professional or businessman and a G-d-fearing Jew like Menasseh.
According to the Ksav Sofer, maybe not everyone should aspire to become a Rabbi but nonetheless everyone should aspire to be a Talmid Chacham.
1
Why shouldn't he aspire to be a Talmid Chacham AND a doctor? It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:54
@DoubleAA why not both? As R' Herschel Schachter says- one can be an "earner learner"
– alicht
Apr 30 at 15:58
Where are you getting the distinction between a rabbi and talmid chacham from?
– SophArch
May 1 at 13:22
@SophArch one can be a Talmid Chacham (lit. "smart student" ie- extremely knowledgeable in Jewish law) without being a Rabbi.
– alicht
May 1 at 14:35
@alicht yes, but I don't see the ksav sofer making that distinction in your answer. He seems to only be taking about being a Talmid chacham and that is the highest level
– SophArch
May 1 at 16:55
|
show 1 more comment
The Ksav Sofer (1815-1871)-- as quoted in this torchweb.org article (can't find his standalone commentary online)-- discusses this in his commentary to Bereishis 48:20:
... it is the obligation of every Jewish parent to teach his son Torah in the hope that he becomes a great Talmid Chacham which is the highest level to which a Jew can aspire - and if he doesn't succeed, he can always choose to be the doctor, lawyer, businessman, etc.
The Ksav Sofer continues:
For this reason, a Jewish parent blesses his son every Friday evening that he should grow up to be like Ephraim and Menasseh in that order, meaning that he should try to attain the highest level and to become a great Talmid Chacham like Ephraim, and if that doesn't work out, then he should strive to become a successful professional or businessman and a G-d-fearing Jew like Menasseh.
According to the Ksav Sofer, maybe not everyone should aspire to become a Rabbi but nonetheless everyone should aspire to be a Talmid Chacham.
1
Why shouldn't he aspire to be a Talmid Chacham AND a doctor? It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:54
@DoubleAA why not both? As R' Herschel Schachter says- one can be an "earner learner"
– alicht
Apr 30 at 15:58
Where are you getting the distinction between a rabbi and talmid chacham from?
– SophArch
May 1 at 13:22
@SophArch one can be a Talmid Chacham (lit. "smart student" ie- extremely knowledgeable in Jewish law) without being a Rabbi.
– alicht
May 1 at 14:35
@alicht yes, but I don't see the ksav sofer making that distinction in your answer. He seems to only be taking about being a Talmid chacham and that is the highest level
– SophArch
May 1 at 16:55
|
show 1 more comment
The Ksav Sofer (1815-1871)-- as quoted in this torchweb.org article (can't find his standalone commentary online)-- discusses this in his commentary to Bereishis 48:20:
... it is the obligation of every Jewish parent to teach his son Torah in the hope that he becomes a great Talmid Chacham which is the highest level to which a Jew can aspire - and if he doesn't succeed, he can always choose to be the doctor, lawyer, businessman, etc.
The Ksav Sofer continues:
For this reason, a Jewish parent blesses his son every Friday evening that he should grow up to be like Ephraim and Menasseh in that order, meaning that he should try to attain the highest level and to become a great Talmid Chacham like Ephraim, and if that doesn't work out, then he should strive to become a successful professional or businessman and a G-d-fearing Jew like Menasseh.
According to the Ksav Sofer, maybe not everyone should aspire to become a Rabbi but nonetheless everyone should aspire to be a Talmid Chacham.
The Ksav Sofer (1815-1871)-- as quoted in this torchweb.org article (can't find his standalone commentary online)-- discusses this in his commentary to Bereishis 48:20:
... it is the obligation of every Jewish parent to teach his son Torah in the hope that he becomes a great Talmid Chacham which is the highest level to which a Jew can aspire - and if he doesn't succeed, he can always choose to be the doctor, lawyer, businessman, etc.
The Ksav Sofer continues:
For this reason, a Jewish parent blesses his son every Friday evening that he should grow up to be like Ephraim and Menasseh in that order, meaning that he should try to attain the highest level and to become a great Talmid Chacham like Ephraim, and if that doesn't work out, then he should strive to become a successful professional or businessman and a G-d-fearing Jew like Menasseh.
According to the Ksav Sofer, maybe not everyone should aspire to become a Rabbi but nonetheless everyone should aspire to be a Talmid Chacham.
answered Apr 30 at 15:41
alichtalicht
3,6601636
3,6601636
1
Why shouldn't he aspire to be a Talmid Chacham AND a doctor? It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:54
@DoubleAA why not both? As R' Herschel Schachter says- one can be an "earner learner"
– alicht
Apr 30 at 15:58
Where are you getting the distinction between a rabbi and talmid chacham from?
– SophArch
May 1 at 13:22
@SophArch one can be a Talmid Chacham (lit. "smart student" ie- extremely knowledgeable in Jewish law) without being a Rabbi.
– alicht
May 1 at 14:35
@alicht yes, but I don't see the ksav sofer making that distinction in your answer. He seems to only be taking about being a Talmid chacham and that is the highest level
– SophArch
May 1 at 16:55
|
show 1 more comment
1
Why shouldn't he aspire to be a Talmid Chacham AND a doctor? It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:54
@DoubleAA why not both? As R' Herschel Schachter says- one can be an "earner learner"
– alicht
Apr 30 at 15:58
Where are you getting the distinction between a rabbi and talmid chacham from?
– SophArch
May 1 at 13:22
@SophArch one can be a Talmid Chacham (lit. "smart student" ie- extremely knowledgeable in Jewish law) without being a Rabbi.
– alicht
May 1 at 14:35
@alicht yes, but I don't see the ksav sofer making that distinction in your answer. He seems to only be taking about being a Talmid chacham and that is the highest level
– SophArch
May 1 at 16:55
1
1
Why shouldn't he aspire to be a Talmid Chacham AND a doctor? It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:54
Why shouldn't he aspire to be a Talmid Chacham AND a doctor? It's hard to know if this answers the question without precise definitions of terms.
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:54
@DoubleAA why not both? As R' Herschel Schachter says- one can be an "earner learner"
– alicht
Apr 30 at 15:58
@DoubleAA why not both? As R' Herschel Schachter says- one can be an "earner learner"
– alicht
Apr 30 at 15:58
Where are you getting the distinction between a rabbi and talmid chacham from?
– SophArch
May 1 at 13:22
Where are you getting the distinction between a rabbi and talmid chacham from?
– SophArch
May 1 at 13:22
@SophArch one can be a Talmid Chacham (lit. "smart student" ie- extremely knowledgeable in Jewish law) without being a Rabbi.
– alicht
May 1 at 14:35
@SophArch one can be a Talmid Chacham (lit. "smart student" ie- extremely knowledgeable in Jewish law) without being a Rabbi.
– alicht
May 1 at 14:35
@alicht yes, but I don't see the ksav sofer making that distinction in your answer. He seems to only be taking about being a Talmid chacham and that is the highest level
– SophArch
May 1 at 16:55
@alicht yes, but I don't see the ksav sofer making that distinction in your answer. He seems to only be taking about being a Talmid chacham and that is the highest level
– SophArch
May 1 at 16:55
|
show 1 more comment
It greatly depends on how you define a Talmid Chacham - as opposed to Am Haaretz or as opposed to Ish Maaseh.
As opposed to Am Haaretz - it is a sure Mitzvah to excel in learning Torah and observing the commandments to the maximum extent possible. I don't think this needs clarification, see the other answer(s).
As opposed to Anshey Maaseh - I addressed this problem here. In short, there are two approaches, a) the Rabbis themselves want everybody to be a scholar, but b) they agree post-factum, that being a prominent Ish Maaseh - like devoting oneself to practical interpersonal Mitzvos, such as Tzdoko, Bikur Cholim, Kibud Av and more, is counted not less (and maybe even more) than being T"C.
add a comment |
It greatly depends on how you define a Talmid Chacham - as opposed to Am Haaretz or as opposed to Ish Maaseh.
As opposed to Am Haaretz - it is a sure Mitzvah to excel in learning Torah and observing the commandments to the maximum extent possible. I don't think this needs clarification, see the other answer(s).
As opposed to Anshey Maaseh - I addressed this problem here. In short, there are two approaches, a) the Rabbis themselves want everybody to be a scholar, but b) they agree post-factum, that being a prominent Ish Maaseh - like devoting oneself to practical interpersonal Mitzvos, such as Tzdoko, Bikur Cholim, Kibud Av and more, is counted not less (and maybe even more) than being T"C.
add a comment |
It greatly depends on how you define a Talmid Chacham - as opposed to Am Haaretz or as opposed to Ish Maaseh.
As opposed to Am Haaretz - it is a sure Mitzvah to excel in learning Torah and observing the commandments to the maximum extent possible. I don't think this needs clarification, see the other answer(s).
As opposed to Anshey Maaseh - I addressed this problem here. In short, there are two approaches, a) the Rabbis themselves want everybody to be a scholar, but b) they agree post-factum, that being a prominent Ish Maaseh - like devoting oneself to practical interpersonal Mitzvos, such as Tzdoko, Bikur Cholim, Kibud Av and more, is counted not less (and maybe even more) than being T"C.
It greatly depends on how you define a Talmid Chacham - as opposed to Am Haaretz or as opposed to Ish Maaseh.
As opposed to Am Haaretz - it is a sure Mitzvah to excel in learning Torah and observing the commandments to the maximum extent possible. I don't think this needs clarification, see the other answer(s).
As opposed to Anshey Maaseh - I addressed this problem here. In short, there are two approaches, a) the Rabbis themselves want everybody to be a scholar, but b) they agree post-factum, that being a prominent Ish Maaseh - like devoting oneself to practical interpersonal Mitzvos, such as Tzdoko, Bikur Cholim, Kibud Av and more, is counted not less (and maybe even more) than being T"C.
answered Apr 30 at 15:51
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,1062630
7,1062630
add a comment |
add a comment |
Even assuming that your assumptions are correct, #2 does not necessarily imply what you think it does. Just because one has to be the best he can be doesn’t mean that the best for him is to be a Rabbi. (Putting aside the many distinctions between a Rabbi today and a Rabbi in the times of the Gemara.)
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:02
Related to your assumptions: judaism.stackexchange.com/a/86208 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14559
– DonielF
Apr 30 at 15:04
I thought everyone is allowed to lie about their bed, their hosts, and [whatever the third thing is I forget].
– Double AA♦
Apr 30 at 15:28
related Talmud Tora or Chessed: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/87582/…
– Al Berko
Apr 30 at 15:37
@DoubleAA That is from BM 23b, which seems to only refer to rabbis. Implication as I see it is that either non rabbis can lie about anything (as long as it doesnt cause harm to others) or that only rabbis have the right to lie and only in those three areas
– SophArch
Apr 30 at 15:56