Can halacha of Eidim Zomemim be applied in today's times? (ex: $ cases)Edim Zomemim - Why Not Believe Them?What medical condition was this “epilepsy that causes mental instability at all times”?Coerced testimony in halachaStory with Rav Safra — halacha l'maseh?How can inanimate objects function as “witnesses” in the Tanakh?How exactly were Sabbath laws enforced during ancient times?When Eidim Zomemim are found guilty who do they pay if it was a monetary case?Can an affidavit be used in Beit Din?Prison in HalachaEidim Zomemim in a case of seeing a new moon
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Can halacha of Eidim Zomemim be applied in today's times? (ex: $ cases)
Edim Zomemim - Why Not Believe Them?What medical condition was this “epilepsy that causes mental instability at all times”?Coerced testimony in halachaStory with Rav Safra — halacha l'maseh?How can inanimate objects function as “witnesses” in the Tanakh?How exactly were Sabbath laws enforced during ancient times?When Eidim Zomemim are found guilty who do they pay if it was a monetary case?Can an affidavit be used in Beit Din?Prison in HalachaEidim Zomemim in a case of seeing a new moon
Scenario: Reuven & Shimon are at the Beth Din of America in Manhattan and are testifying that Levi completely wrecked Yehuda's Manhattan apartment on March 17.
Suddenly: Dan & Naftali come in mid-testimony and say "We don't know whether or not Levi wrecked Yehuda's apartment, but we're here to testify that that you were with us in LA on March 17."
This sounds like a textbook case of Eidim Zomemim (conspiring witnesses) right out of the first perek of Makkos!
Now:
For death/ lashes/ fines - there's no court of 23 or Sanhedrin nowadays which would be able to administer death/ lashes/ fines.
But:
In monetary cases... (which ARE still applicable nowadays)
Is it possible for a case of Eidim Zomemim to happen in today's times?
beit-din-court edim-witnesses maseches-makos
asked May 8 at 3:22
alichtalicht
3,9221636
add a comment |
Scenario: Reuven & Shimon are at the Beth Din of America in Manhattan and are testifying that Levi completely wrecked Yehuda's Manhattan apartment on March 17.
Suddenly: Dan & Naftali come in mid-testimony and say "We don't know whether or not Levi wrecked Yehuda's apartment, but we're here to testify that that you were with us in LA on March 17."
This sounds like a textbook case of Eidim Zomemim (conspiring witnesses) right out of the first perek of Makkos!
Now:
For death/ lashes/ fines - there's no court of 23 or Sanhedrin nowadays which would be able to administer death/ lashes/ fines.
But:
In monetary cases... (which ARE still applicable nowadays)
Is it possible for a case of Eidim Zomemim to happen in today's times?
beit-din-court edim-witnesses maseches-makos
asked May 8 at 3:22
alichtalicht
3,9221636
2
We don't levy fines nowadays in general (for example a modern court won't make you pay back double for theft).
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:29
@DoubleAA right- but is paying someone back for causing monetary damage considered a fine? (acc to R' Akiva = yes, but that's because he says Eidim Zomemim is a k'nas implication being others don't view it as a k'nas)
– alicht
May 8 at 3:39
hm? What monetary damage did the zomemin do?
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:46
@DoubleAA none and that's why you're right that it makes sense that it's a k'nas (see kouty's answer below who quotes the Rema who writes as such) although then I don't understand why R' Akiva's shita who's seemingly presented as a novel da'as yachid sefaria.org/Makkot.2b.16?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=he
– alicht
May 8 at 3:51
1
In that same first perek of makkos we learn that the punishment for eidim zomemim is considered a fine (knas) not a monetary case (mamon). Amazingly, it seems this is the case even if the punishment is something other than paying (e.g. lashes or even death)
– Daniel
May 8 at 3:53
add a comment |
Scenario: Reuven & Shimon are at the Beth Din of America in Manhattan and are testifying that Levi completely wrecked Yehuda's Manhattan apartment on March 17.
Suddenly: Dan & Naftali come in mid-testimony and say "We don't know whether or not Levi wrecked Yehuda's apartment, but we're here to testify that that you were with us in LA on March 17."
This sounds like a textbook case of Eidim Zomemim (conspiring witnesses) right out of the first perek of Makkos!
Now:
For death/ lashes/ fines - there's no court of 23 or Sanhedrin nowadays which would be able to administer death/ lashes/ fines.
But:
In monetary cases... (which ARE still applicable nowadays)
Is it possible for a case of Eidim Zomemim to happen in today's times?
beit-din-court edim-witnesses maseches-makos
asked May 8 at 3:22
alichtalicht
3,9221636
Scenario: Reuven & Shimon are at the Beth Din of America in Manhattan and are testifying that Levi completely wrecked Yehuda's Manhattan apartment on March 17.
Suddenly: Dan & Naftali come in mid-testimony and say "We don't know whether or not Levi wrecked Yehuda's apartment, but we're here to testify that that you were with us in LA on March 17."
This sounds like a textbook case of Eidim Zomemim (conspiring witnesses) right out of the first perek of Makkos!
Now:
For death/ lashes/ fines - there's no court of 23 or Sanhedrin nowadays which would be able to administer death/ lashes/ fines.
But:
In monetary cases... (which ARE still applicable nowadays)
Is it possible for a case of Eidim Zomemim to happen in today's times?
beit-din-court edim-witnesses maseches-makos
beit-din-court edim-witnesses maseches-makos
asked May 8 at 3:22
alichtalicht
3,9221636
asked May 8 at 3:22
alichtalicht
3,9221636
edited May 8 at 3:27
alicht
asked May 8 at 3:22
alichtalicht
3,9221636
asked May 8 at 3:22
alichtalicht
3,9221636
asked May 8 at 3:22
alichtalicht
3,9221636
3,9221636
2
We don't levy fines nowadays in general (for example a modern court won't make you pay back double for theft).
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:29
@DoubleAA right- but is paying someone back for causing monetary damage considered a fine? (acc to R' Akiva = yes, but that's because he says Eidim Zomemim is a k'nas implication being others don't view it as a k'nas)
– alicht
May 8 at 3:39
hm? What monetary damage did the zomemin do?
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:46
@DoubleAA none and that's why you're right that it makes sense that it's a k'nas (see kouty's answer below who quotes the Rema who writes as such) although then I don't understand why R' Akiva's shita who's seemingly presented as a novel da'as yachid sefaria.org/Makkot.2b.16?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=he
– alicht
May 8 at 3:51
1
In that same first perek of makkos we learn that the punishment for eidim zomemim is considered a fine (knas) not a monetary case (mamon). Amazingly, it seems this is the case even if the punishment is something other than paying (e.g. lashes or even death)
– Daniel
May 8 at 3:53
add a comment |
2
We don't levy fines nowadays in general (for example a modern court won't make you pay back double for theft).
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:29
@DoubleAA right- but is paying someone back for causing monetary damage considered a fine? (acc to R' Akiva = yes, but that's because he says Eidim Zomemim is a k'nas implication being others don't view it as a k'nas)
– alicht
May 8 at 3:39
hm? What monetary damage did the zomemin do?
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:46
@DoubleAA none and that's why you're right that it makes sense that it's a k'nas (see kouty's answer below who quotes the Rema who writes as such) although then I don't understand why R' Akiva's shita who's seemingly presented as a novel da'as yachid sefaria.org/Makkot.2b.16?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=he
– alicht
May 8 at 3:51
1
In that same first perek of makkos we learn that the punishment for eidim zomemim is considered a fine (knas) not a monetary case (mamon). Amazingly, it seems this is the case even if the punishment is something other than paying (e.g. lashes or even death)
– Daniel
May 8 at 3:53
2
2
We don't levy fines nowadays in general (for example a modern court won't make you pay back double for theft).
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:29
We don't levy fines nowadays in general (for example a modern court won't make you pay back double for theft).
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:29
@DoubleAA right- but is paying someone back for causing monetary damage considered a fine? (acc to R' Akiva = yes, but that's because he says Eidim Zomemim is a k'nas implication being others don't view it as a k'nas)
– alicht
May 8 at 3:39
@DoubleAA right- but is paying someone back for causing monetary damage considered a fine? (acc to R' Akiva = yes, but that's because he says Eidim Zomemim is a k'nas implication being others don't view it as a k'nas)
– alicht
May 8 at 3:39
hm? What monetary damage did the zomemin do?
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:46
hm? What monetary damage did the zomemin do?
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:46
@DoubleAA none and that's why you're right that it makes sense that it's a k'nas (see kouty's answer below who quotes the Rema who writes as such) although then I don't understand why R' Akiva's shita who's seemingly presented as a novel da'as yachid sefaria.org/Makkot.2b.16?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=he
– alicht
May 8 at 3:51
@DoubleAA none and that's why you're right that it makes sense that it's a k'nas (see kouty's answer below who quotes the Rema who writes as such) although then I don't understand why R' Akiva's shita who's seemingly presented as a novel da'as yachid sefaria.org/Makkot.2b.16?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=he
– alicht
May 8 at 3:51
1
1
In that same first perek of makkos we learn that the punishment for eidim zomemim is considered a fine (knas) not a monetary case (mamon). Amazingly, it seems this is the case even if the punishment is something other than paying (e.g. lashes or even death)
– Daniel
May 8 at 3:53
In that same first perek of makkos we learn that the punishment for eidim zomemim is considered a fine (knas) not a monetary case (mamon). Amazingly, it seems this is the case even if the punishment is something other than paying (e.g. lashes or even death)
– Daniel
May 8 at 3:53
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
Yes.
Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat 38:1
שנים שהעידו באחד שחייב לפלוני מנה ובאו שנים והכחישום או הזימום ה"ז פטור
if the witnesses he needs to pay 100 ($) are zomemim, he needs not to pay.
However
Nowadays the punishment of Eidim Zomemim is NOT applied because it's a k'nas and we cannot enforce dinei knasot in today's times. Nonetheless the Eidim Zomemim are made to be unfit witnesses.
Rema (there):
כי אע"פ שאין דנין דין עדים זוממים האידנא משום שהוא קנס, מכל מקום איכא נפקותא דעד זומם פסול להעיד כמו שנתבאר לעיל סי' ל"ד
The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
See extended discussions about additional consequences of the din Zomemim nowadays in comments around the Tur and SA in the there.
edited May 8 at 11:37
alicht
3,9221636
answered May 8 at 3:38
koutykouty
17.3k32149
A little confused: on the one hand the SA says that Eidim Zomemim does exist nowadays (the case of $100) but on the other hand the Rema says since it's a k'nas it does not exists nowadays. Machlokes SA vs Rema?
– alicht
May 8 at 3:57
2
No there isn't machloket. The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
– kouty
May 8 at 3:59
gotcha thanks! Will IH also check out the Tur/ surrounding commentaries 👍
– alicht
May 8 at 4:02
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Yes.
Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat 38:1
שנים שהעידו באחד שחייב לפלוני מנה ובאו שנים והכחישום או הזימום ה"ז פטור
if the witnesses he needs to pay 100 ($) are zomemim, he needs not to pay.
However
Nowadays the punishment of Eidim Zomemim is NOT applied because it's a k'nas and we cannot enforce dinei knasot in today's times. Nonetheless the Eidim Zomemim are made to be unfit witnesses.
Rema (there):
כי אע"פ שאין דנין דין עדים זוממים האידנא משום שהוא קנס, מכל מקום איכא נפקותא דעד זומם פסול להעיד כמו שנתבאר לעיל סי' ל"ד
The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
See extended discussions about additional consequences of the din Zomemim nowadays in comments around the Tur and SA in the there.
edited May 8 at 11:37
alicht
3,9221636
answered May 8 at 3:38
koutykouty
17.3k32149
A little confused: on the one hand the SA says that Eidim Zomemim does exist nowadays (the case of $100) but on the other hand the Rema says since it's a k'nas it does not exists nowadays. Machlokes SA vs Rema?
– alicht
May 8 at 3:57
2
No there isn't machloket. The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
– kouty
May 8 at 3:59
gotcha thanks! Will IH also check out the Tur/ surrounding commentaries 👍
– alicht
May 8 at 4:02
add a comment |
Yes.
Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat 38:1
שנים שהעידו באחד שחייב לפלוני מנה ובאו שנים והכחישום או הזימום ה"ז פטור
if the witnesses he needs to pay 100 ($) are zomemim, he needs not to pay.
However
Nowadays the punishment of Eidim Zomemim is NOT applied because it's a k'nas and we cannot enforce dinei knasot in today's times. Nonetheless the Eidim Zomemim are made to be unfit witnesses.
Rema (there):
כי אע"פ שאין דנין דין עדים זוממים האידנא משום שהוא קנס, מכל מקום איכא נפקותא דעד זומם פסול להעיד כמו שנתבאר לעיל סי' ל"ד
The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
See extended discussions about additional consequences of the din Zomemim nowadays in comments around the Tur and SA in the there.
edited May 8 at 11:37
alicht
3,9221636
answered May 8 at 3:38
koutykouty
17.3k32149
A little confused: on the one hand the SA says that Eidim Zomemim does exist nowadays (the case of $100) but on the other hand the Rema says since it's a k'nas it does not exists nowadays. Machlokes SA vs Rema?
– alicht
May 8 at 3:57
2
No there isn't machloket. The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
– kouty
May 8 at 3:59
gotcha thanks! Will IH also check out the Tur/ surrounding commentaries 👍
– alicht
May 8 at 4:02
add a comment |
Yes.
Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat 38:1
שנים שהעידו באחד שחייב לפלוני מנה ובאו שנים והכחישום או הזימום ה"ז פטור
if the witnesses he needs to pay 100 ($) are zomemim, he needs not to pay.
However
Nowadays the punishment of Eidim Zomemim is NOT applied because it's a k'nas and we cannot enforce dinei knasot in today's times. Nonetheless the Eidim Zomemim are made to be unfit witnesses.
Rema (there):
כי אע"פ שאין דנין דין עדים זוממים האידנא משום שהוא קנס, מכל מקום איכא נפקותא דעד זומם פסול להעיד כמו שנתבאר לעיל סי' ל"ד
The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
See extended discussions about additional consequences of the din Zomemim nowadays in comments around the Tur and SA in the there.
edited May 8 at 11:37
alicht
3,9221636
answered May 8 at 3:38
koutykouty
17.3k32149
Yes.
Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat 38:1
שנים שהעידו באחד שחייב לפלוני מנה ובאו שנים והכחישום או הזימום ה"ז פטור
if the witnesses he needs to pay 100 ($) are zomemim, he needs not to pay.
However
Nowadays the punishment of Eidim Zomemim is NOT applied because it's a k'nas and we cannot enforce dinei knasot in today's times. Nonetheless the Eidim Zomemim are made to be unfit witnesses.
Rema (there):
כי אע"פ שאין דנין דין עדים זוממים האידנא משום שהוא קנס, מכל מקום איכא נפקותא דעד זומם פסול להעיד כמו שנתבאר לעיל סי' ל"ד
The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
See extended discussions about additional consequences of the din Zomemim nowadays in comments around the Tur and SA in the there.
edited May 8 at 11:37
alicht
3,9221636
answered May 8 at 3:38
koutykouty
17.3k32149
edited May 8 at 11:37
alicht
3,9221636
edited May 8 at 11:37
alicht
3,9221636
edited May 8 at 11:37
alicht
3,9221636
3,9221636
answered May 8 at 3:38
koutykouty
17.3k32149
answered May 8 at 3:38
koutykouty
17.3k32149
answered May 8 at 3:38
koutykouty
17.3k32149
17.3k32149
A little confused: on the one hand the SA says that Eidim Zomemim does exist nowadays (the case of $100) but on the other hand the Rema says since it's a k'nas it does not exists nowadays. Machlokes SA vs Rema?
– alicht
May 8 at 3:57
2
No there isn't machloket. The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
– kouty
May 8 at 3:59
gotcha thanks! Will IH also check out the Tur/ surrounding commentaries 👍
– alicht
May 8 at 4:02
add a comment |
A little confused: on the one hand the SA says that Eidim Zomemim does exist nowadays (the case of $100) but on the other hand the Rema says since it's a k'nas it does not exists nowadays. Machlokes SA vs Rema?
– alicht
May 8 at 3:57
2
No there isn't machloket. The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
– kouty
May 8 at 3:59
gotcha thanks! Will IH also check out the Tur/ surrounding commentaries 👍
– alicht
May 8 at 4:02
A little confused: on the one hand the SA says that Eidim Zomemim does exist nowadays (the case of $100) but on the other hand the Rema says since it's a k'nas it does not exists nowadays. Machlokes SA vs Rema?
– alicht
May 8 at 3:57
A little confused: on the one hand the SA says that Eidim Zomemim does exist nowadays (the case of $100) but on the other hand the Rema says since it's a k'nas it does not exists nowadays. Machlokes SA vs Rema?
– alicht
May 8 at 3:57
2
2
No there isn't machloket. The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
– kouty
May 8 at 3:59
No there isn't machloket. The unfitness of Edim zomemim is not a knas, but their punishment is a knas.
– kouty
May 8 at 3:59
gotcha thanks! Will IH also check out the Tur/ surrounding commentaries 👍
– alicht
May 8 at 4:02
gotcha thanks! Will IH also check out the Tur/ surrounding commentaries 👍
– alicht
May 8 at 4:02
add a comment |
2
We don't levy fines nowadays in general (for example a modern court won't make you pay back double for theft).
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:29
@DoubleAA right- but is paying someone back for causing monetary damage considered a fine? (acc to R' Akiva = yes, but that's because he says Eidim Zomemim is a k'nas implication being others don't view it as a k'nas)
– alicht
May 8 at 3:39
hm? What monetary damage did the zomemin do?
– Double AA♦
May 8 at 3:46
@DoubleAA none and that's why you're right that it makes sense that it's a k'nas (see kouty's answer below who quotes the Rema who writes as such) although then I don't understand why R' Akiva's shita who's seemingly presented as a novel da'as yachid sefaria.org/Makkot.2b.16?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=he
– alicht
May 8 at 3:51
1
In that same first perek of makkos we learn that the punishment for eidim zomemim is considered a fine (knas) not a monetary case (mamon). Amazingly, it seems this is the case even if the punishment is something other than paying (e.g. lashes or even death)
– Daniel
May 8 at 3:53