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If absolute velocity does not exist, how can we say a rocket accelerates in empty space?


Is acceleration an absolute quantity?Does vacuum (empty space) exist?Does the “Andromeda Paradox” (Rietdijk–Putnam-Penrose) imply a completely deterministic universe?Variance in speed of lightClocks tick steadily, so why is there no photon time?Why is speed/position relative but acceleration not?Empty Space - Could we exist without it?Can you tell your absolute speed in space?Empty space and velocityDo absolute space and time exist?Does absolute motion/stillness exist?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








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If a rocket in space fires its thrusters, it is propelled forwards as per the laws of motion. This can be measured by its position relative to other bodies in the universe.



Hypothetically if there was a universe that was completely empty except for the rocket and it then fired its thrusters, surely the same forces would apply (even if its movement could not be measured). Just because we can’t measure an event, is that the same thing as saying that it never happened? Is it correct to say that the rocket didn’t move?










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$endgroup$







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    "Rocket" might not be a good choice in your question. You want to ask about absolute velocity, while rocket leaves gas (exhaust) behind, and people will be quick to point out you can use those as reference frames. Try to come up with something that moves without creating new objects.
    $endgroup$
    – Double Vision Stout Fat Heavy
    Jun 10 at 3:00






  • 3




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    @DoubleVisionStoutFatHeavy I believe you'll have some trouble coming up with an example.
    $endgroup$
    – knzhou
    Jun 11 at 8:27










  • $begingroup$
    @knzhou : A windowless elevator attached to a long cable that is accelerated in the usual way. This is not a new thought experiment.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 11 at 21:50

















22












$begingroup$


If a rocket in space fires its thrusters, it is propelled forwards as per the laws of motion. This can be measured by its position relative to other bodies in the universe.



Hypothetically if there was a universe that was completely empty except for the rocket and it then fired its thrusters, surely the same forces would apply (even if its movement could not be measured). Just because we can’t measure an event, is that the same thing as saying that it never happened? Is it correct to say that the rocket didn’t move?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    "Rocket" might not be a good choice in your question. You want to ask about absolute velocity, while rocket leaves gas (exhaust) behind, and people will be quick to point out you can use those as reference frames. Try to come up with something that moves without creating new objects.
    $endgroup$
    – Double Vision Stout Fat Heavy
    Jun 10 at 3:00






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @DoubleVisionStoutFatHeavy I believe you'll have some trouble coming up with an example.
    $endgroup$
    – knzhou
    Jun 11 at 8:27










  • $begingroup$
    @knzhou : A windowless elevator attached to a long cable that is accelerated in the usual way. This is not a new thought experiment.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 11 at 21:50













22












22








22


4



$begingroup$


If a rocket in space fires its thrusters, it is propelled forwards as per the laws of motion. This can be measured by its position relative to other bodies in the universe.



Hypothetically if there was a universe that was completely empty except for the rocket and it then fired its thrusters, surely the same forces would apply (even if its movement could not be measured). Just because we can’t measure an event, is that the same thing as saying that it never happened? Is it correct to say that the rocket didn’t move?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




If a rocket in space fires its thrusters, it is propelled forwards as per the laws of motion. This can be measured by its position relative to other bodies in the universe.



Hypothetically if there was a universe that was completely empty except for the rocket and it then fired its thrusters, surely the same forces would apply (even if its movement could not be measured). Just because we can’t measure an event, is that the same thing as saying that it never happened? Is it correct to say that the rocket didn’t move?







spacetime reference-frames velocity relative-motion






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edited Jun 16 at 17:07







Leroy

















asked Jun 9 at 8:32









LeroyLeroy

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2281 silver badge8 bronze badges







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    "Rocket" might not be a good choice in your question. You want to ask about absolute velocity, while rocket leaves gas (exhaust) behind, and people will be quick to point out you can use those as reference frames. Try to come up with something that moves without creating new objects.
    $endgroup$
    – Double Vision Stout Fat Heavy
    Jun 10 at 3:00






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @DoubleVisionStoutFatHeavy I believe you'll have some trouble coming up with an example.
    $endgroup$
    – knzhou
    Jun 11 at 8:27










  • $begingroup$
    @knzhou : A windowless elevator attached to a long cable that is accelerated in the usual way. This is not a new thought experiment.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 11 at 21:50












  • 5




    $begingroup$
    "Rocket" might not be a good choice in your question. You want to ask about absolute velocity, while rocket leaves gas (exhaust) behind, and people will be quick to point out you can use those as reference frames. Try to come up with something that moves without creating new objects.
    $endgroup$
    – Double Vision Stout Fat Heavy
    Jun 10 at 3:00






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @DoubleVisionStoutFatHeavy I believe you'll have some trouble coming up with an example.
    $endgroup$
    – knzhou
    Jun 11 at 8:27










  • $begingroup$
    @knzhou : A windowless elevator attached to a long cable that is accelerated in the usual way. This is not a new thought experiment.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Towers
    Jun 11 at 21:50







5




5




$begingroup$
"Rocket" might not be a good choice in your question. You want to ask about absolute velocity, while rocket leaves gas (exhaust) behind, and people will be quick to point out you can use those as reference frames. Try to come up with something that moves without creating new objects.
$endgroup$
– Double Vision Stout Fat Heavy
Jun 10 at 3:00




$begingroup$
"Rocket" might not be a good choice in your question. You want to ask about absolute velocity, while rocket leaves gas (exhaust) behind, and people will be quick to point out you can use those as reference frames. Try to come up with something that moves without creating new objects.
$endgroup$
– Double Vision Stout Fat Heavy
Jun 10 at 3:00




3




3




$begingroup$
@DoubleVisionStoutFatHeavy I believe you'll have some trouble coming up with an example.
$endgroup$
– knzhou
Jun 11 at 8:27




$begingroup$
@DoubleVisionStoutFatHeavy I believe you'll have some trouble coming up with an example.
$endgroup$
– knzhou
Jun 11 at 8:27












$begingroup$
@knzhou : A windowless elevator attached to a long cable that is accelerated in the usual way. This is not a new thought experiment.
$endgroup$
– Eric Towers
Jun 11 at 21:50




$begingroup$
@knzhou : A windowless elevator attached to a long cable that is accelerated in the usual way. This is not a new thought experiment.
$endgroup$
– Eric Towers
Jun 11 at 21:50










11 Answers
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Within the context of Newtonian mechanics and special relativity, there's a simple answer: velocities are not absolute, but differences in velocities are. So you can state that acceleration occurs unambiguously.



In fact, the same logic still works in general relativity; acceleration is unambiguous even in a universe without matter. However, in certain philosophical stances inspired by general relativity, the question is trickier because one might take a hardline Machian position, where motion should only be defined in relation to other matter. But in this case you can still answer the question because there is motion relative to the exhaust.






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    This, I think, is the best way to think about it. Relative velocity is what to focus on.
    $endgroup$
    – CCTO
    Jun 10 at 13:42






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    $begingroup$
    It's also important that even in general relativity, acceleration is absolute (if you define it correctly). See also physics.stackexchange.com/questions/173
    $endgroup$
    – WorldSEnder
    Jun 10 at 20:04










  • $begingroup$
    @WorldSEnder That’s true! I am referring to the philosophy, partly inspired by GR and probably implicitly held by OP, that only observables involving matter (such as the meeting of two geodesics) are valid. It’s definitely not required by GR but a good number of people had it, including Einstein.
    $endgroup$
    – knzhou
    Jun 10 at 20:09






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    This should be the accepted answer.
    $endgroup$
    – gented
    Jun 11 at 8:26






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    I'd be careful of motion relative to exhaust; you can build a photon drive that only uses light, and the light remains traveling at c regardless of how "fast" you are going, and the photons (with nothing to interact with) instantly leave your light cone once they leave the body of the space ship.
    $endgroup$
    – Yakk
    Jun 11 at 15:52



















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A rocket's thrusters function by ejecting reaction mass (exhaust). You can measure the movement of the rocket by its distance from its reaction mass. The rocket moves relative to its reactant.



You can say the rocket didn't move, but not because it can't be measured. The center of mass of a rocket-reactant system* never goes anywhere—not even in our universe**—because the force of the rocket on its reactant is equal and opposite to the force of the reactant on the rocket. In this sense, the rocket-reactant system's center of mass is unaffected by the thrusters because the thrusters are internal to the system in question.



* Edited for clarity.



** Unless acted upon by an outside force.






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    What are you talking about? Of course the rockets center of mass will move. The particles it exhausts need not be of comparable weight to the rocket. As a counter example, consider an air filled rocket that propels itself by a pressure difference between the outside, and the air within the container. Once the pressure difference has been equalized, the rocket toy will not weigh significantly less, but it will have moved a great distance.
    $endgroup$
    – user400188
    Jun 10 at 0:53






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    @user400188 Conservation of linear momentum. Nothing can change the center of mass of a system without an outside force.
    $endgroup$
    – Draconis
    Jun 10 at 3:08






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    @Draconis thank you for reminding me. Sorry for the mistake Isusr
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    – user400188
    Jun 10 at 4:09






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    I downvoted because this answer fails to distinguish between the rocket (a largely solid entity that gets into orbit) and the exhaust gas (other stuff which is left behind as the rocket accelerates). If you use the word 'rocket' to mean 'solid thing plus all the stuff it ejected' then you can say its centre of mass didn't move, but this is mere word-trickery. Redefining words away from their natural meaning should be announced up-front and justified. Otherwise it merely encourages confusion and meaningless debate.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrew Steane
    Jun 10 at 10:28






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    @JohnDvorak, the OP asked explicitly in a completely empty space. No earth, no other planets or stars.
    $endgroup$
    – Mayou36
    Jun 10 at 19:17


















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how can we say a rocket accelerates in empty space ?




According to third Newton law, body in a rocket will experience pseudo-force with direction opposite to that of rocket acceleration. That is - rocket acceleration will induce body weight which can be observed / measured :
enter image description here



It's much like water "feels" centrifugal force. What you actually will not be able to distinguish is that if rocket flies with acceleration OR if it has already landed at some planet given that astronauts were sleeping in a journey and no windows to see planet surface and rocket's dashboard is broken showing false acceleration. It is a direct conclusion of Equivalence principle.






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    If we set up the universe using Newton's mechanics, we can get a (mostly useless) definition of absolute velocity from the big bang itself. If momentum is conserved while energy is not (which it cannot be), absolute velocity is defined from the big bang's initial reference frame.



    We can do the same in general relativity for some sets of initial conditions but not others, but there is no simple proof for this because conservation of momentum and conservation of energy are linked in general relativity. In all of the ones for which this works, the absolute velocity is equivalent to the velocity of the cosmic background radiation.



    Rockets accelerate by pushing mass out the back. The weak forces resulting from CMB interaction are negligible for any reasonable rocket, therefore if fired in deep space, the reasonable reference frame is the initial frame of the rocket, and there is no change to position of the center of mass of rocket + exhaust. As we should expect from this, engine efficiency is exponential with engine exhaust velocity.



    So, the effective answer to your question is "we don't care". The laws of physics from the time of Newton never really cared what the effective frame is. If you take the laws of physics and take the limit* as $c$ goes to infinity, Newton's mechanics drop out again.



    *Yes I know taking the limit of a constant makes no mathematical sense. What we're looking for is reintroducing Newton's assumption that the speed of light is too large to matter for anything else.






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    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I don't see a big bang in the OP's described universe?
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      Jun 11 at 17:03










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      @Yakk: I also do not see anything in it to make Noether's theorem on momentum not apply.
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      – Joshua
      Jun 12 at 0:13



















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    Acceleration and relative velocities



    An absolute velocity can not be measured, that's correct. But an absolute acceleration can. E.g. with a simple scale.



    Measuring the acceleration, you can know your velocity. This is a system that is e.g. already since long time used in airplanes known as inertial navigation system.



    There is the other part, the relative velocity, as already mentioned in other answers: while the absolute velocity is not measurable, differences are. And in this case the difference to the exhaust of the rocket can be measured.



    Relative velocities are the only ones that actually matter.






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    • $begingroup$
      Distance to emitted photons cannot be measured. So with a photon drive does your answer change?
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      Jun 11 at 16:06










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      Why not? I know the position of a star and can measure it's photons. Since I am here and the star is there, I know the distance. If you refer to "cannot be measured by the emitter only without any additional tools (like photon detectors placed somewhere away", then I agree. Sure, it's not just velocity in the case of a photon, you take it's wavelength and energy conservation.
      $endgroup$
      – Mayou36
      Jun 11 at 21:17










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      there is nothing else in the universe. I guess you could drop a mirror and fire photons at it.
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      Jun 11 at 22:36










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      @Yakk yes, but then again a mirror is another object. So I would leave it as: in principle the relative exhaust velocity can even be measured with a photon drive. Practically, to be slightly picky, if there is nothing else in the universe, neither the photons nor any other exhaust can be measured (you won't even see it, there is no light). Measurement equipment allowed -> relative distances works. No "external" equipment -> acceleration only measurable (inside rocket a scale is available I guess). Do you agree?
      $endgroup$
      – Mayou36
      Jun 12 at 8:28


















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    if it is a universe with the same dimensions and physical laws as our own, then the rocket would move per action and reaction, whether or not there was any other mass or energy in the universe. Then the rocket would be moving away from the gasses it expelled.






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      from whatever i have read this is a fundamental open q. properties of space and time are not known in an "empty" universe and hence concept of motion is not clearly understood.
      you might want to read about spinning water bucket thought experiment






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        I will firstly answer in the context of relativity. The proper acceleration, meaning the acceleration as measured in the reference frame of the rocket, which is related to the "force" felt by the rocket, is independent of its velocity (relative to any other observer). However the rocket's acceleration as measured in other reference frames does depend on the relative velocity: $vec a' = vec a/gamma^3$, where $gamma := (1-(v/c)^2)^-1/2$ is the Lorentz factor. Hence other frames measure a lower acceleration for the rocket. The "$vec a$" terms are accelerations in space (3-accelerations) to be precise; also this simple formula applies only when the relative velocity lines up with the acceleration direction (again, I mean in space only). Tsamplaris 2010 is a nice reference, see $S7.2$.



        To take a very different perspective, from philosophy of physics and Newtonian gravity, you can actually define or interpret "acceleration" as relative if you really want to. (I mention this as a curiosity only, and if the reader is pragmatic or prefers a simple answer then ignore this and just say "acceleration is absolute".) John Norton, in a 1995 article subtitled "Acceleration is relative", writes




        Relativity of Acceleration



        The decomposition of gravitational free fall into an inertial trajectory and a gravitational deflection is
        conventional; we are free to divide free fall motion into any
        combination of inertial motion and gravitational deflection we please,
        as long as the latter corresponds to a gravitational potential
        satisfying Poisson's equation.




        Presumably this could be extended to the rocket example here.






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          The instant your rocket begins to accelerate, the space it’s in is no longer “empty except for the rocket”. Because you now also have the rocket’s reaction mass, and that gives you something else against which its movement can be measured.






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            You got "movement" and "acceleration" mixed up.



            "Movement" (in free-fall), i.e. velocity, cannot be measured without outside references. Movement is always in relation to something else.



            But acceleration, i.e. the changing of velocity, can readily be measured without outside references.



            So you can't tell whether a rocket is moving or not if you have no reference, but you can very easily measure if it is accelerating, by how much, and in which direction.






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            • $begingroup$
              Movement in free-fall is acceleration, not velocity, because free-fall generally refers to falling under the influence of gravity in the absence of other forces. In the absence of other forces, you cannot measure this acceleration without outside references. It might be worth clarifying that measuring acceleration doesn't really work if it's due to gravity.
              $endgroup$
              – JMac
              Jun 12 at 11:17


















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            Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity.



            That's the gist of it. It's for this reason that Einstein stated, "space without ether is unthinkable".



            Unfortunately, he was voted down by his peers as this went against everything he said in his theory of spacial relativity. Einstein realized his mistake, but by then, his theory had taken on a life of its own.



            OH yeah, back to the question. Tie a Lazer pointer to a light fitting, pointing straight down. Mark the spot. If the dot moves, you're accelerating in the opposite direction.






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            • 3




              $begingroup$
              "Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity." Nope! Correct statement: without an Ether we cannot observe the definition of absolute velocity experimentally.
              $endgroup$
              – Joshua
              Jun 9 at 18:40











            • $begingroup$
              @Joshua we can never observe it. Observations are always subjective. All motion is relative for a subjective observer.
              $endgroup$
              – zane scheepers
              Jun 9 at 19:14










            • $begingroup$
              Two words: CMB frame. Whether we can find the absolute frame by a sufficient degree of cunning, and whether the laws of physics care are two different questions.
              $endgroup$
              – Joshua
              Jun 9 at 19:16










            • $begingroup$
              Technically, that's 4 words. Secondly, how would you know if the entire universe, including the CBM background, isn't moving uniformly through space?
              $endgroup$
              – zane scheepers
              Jun 9 at 19:22






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              $begingroup$
              Here's the full text. As far as I can tell, what Einstein's calling the "gravitational ether" there is what we would call the "spacetime metric" now.
              $endgroup$
              – Michael Seifert
              Jun 10 at 14:33











            protected by John Rennie Jun 10 at 10:45



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            11 Answers
            11






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            11 Answers
            11






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            54












            $begingroup$

            Within the context of Newtonian mechanics and special relativity, there's a simple answer: velocities are not absolute, but differences in velocities are. So you can state that acceleration occurs unambiguously.



            In fact, the same logic still works in general relativity; acceleration is unambiguous even in a universe without matter. However, in certain philosophical stances inspired by general relativity, the question is trickier because one might take a hardline Machian position, where motion should only be defined in relation to other matter. But in this case you can still answer the question because there is motion relative to the exhaust.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$








            • 2




              $begingroup$
              This, I think, is the best way to think about it. Relative velocity is what to focus on.
              $endgroup$
              – CCTO
              Jun 10 at 13:42






            • 4




              $begingroup$
              It's also important that even in general relativity, acceleration is absolute (if you define it correctly). See also physics.stackexchange.com/questions/173
              $endgroup$
              – WorldSEnder
              Jun 10 at 20:04










            • $begingroup$
              @WorldSEnder That’s true! I am referring to the philosophy, partly inspired by GR and probably implicitly held by OP, that only observables involving matter (such as the meeting of two geodesics) are valid. It’s definitely not required by GR but a good number of people had it, including Einstein.
              $endgroup$
              – knzhou
              Jun 10 at 20:09






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              This should be the accepted answer.
              $endgroup$
              – gented
              Jun 11 at 8:26






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              I'd be careful of motion relative to exhaust; you can build a photon drive that only uses light, and the light remains traveling at c regardless of how "fast" you are going, and the photons (with nothing to interact with) instantly leave your light cone once they leave the body of the space ship.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              Jun 11 at 15:52
















            54












            $begingroup$

            Within the context of Newtonian mechanics and special relativity, there's a simple answer: velocities are not absolute, but differences in velocities are. So you can state that acceleration occurs unambiguously.



            In fact, the same logic still works in general relativity; acceleration is unambiguous even in a universe without matter. However, in certain philosophical stances inspired by general relativity, the question is trickier because one might take a hardline Machian position, where motion should only be defined in relation to other matter. But in this case you can still answer the question because there is motion relative to the exhaust.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$








            • 2




              $begingroup$
              This, I think, is the best way to think about it. Relative velocity is what to focus on.
              $endgroup$
              – CCTO
              Jun 10 at 13:42






            • 4




              $begingroup$
              It's also important that even in general relativity, acceleration is absolute (if you define it correctly). See also physics.stackexchange.com/questions/173
              $endgroup$
              – WorldSEnder
              Jun 10 at 20:04










            • $begingroup$
              @WorldSEnder That’s true! I am referring to the philosophy, partly inspired by GR and probably implicitly held by OP, that only observables involving matter (such as the meeting of two geodesics) are valid. It’s definitely not required by GR but a good number of people had it, including Einstein.
              $endgroup$
              – knzhou
              Jun 10 at 20:09






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              This should be the accepted answer.
              $endgroup$
              – gented
              Jun 11 at 8:26






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              I'd be careful of motion relative to exhaust; you can build a photon drive that only uses light, and the light remains traveling at c regardless of how "fast" you are going, and the photons (with nothing to interact with) instantly leave your light cone once they leave the body of the space ship.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              Jun 11 at 15:52














            54












            54








            54





            $begingroup$

            Within the context of Newtonian mechanics and special relativity, there's a simple answer: velocities are not absolute, but differences in velocities are. So you can state that acceleration occurs unambiguously.



            In fact, the same logic still works in general relativity; acceleration is unambiguous even in a universe without matter. However, in certain philosophical stances inspired by general relativity, the question is trickier because one might take a hardline Machian position, where motion should only be defined in relation to other matter. But in this case you can still answer the question because there is motion relative to the exhaust.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Within the context of Newtonian mechanics and special relativity, there's a simple answer: velocities are not absolute, but differences in velocities are. So you can state that acceleration occurs unambiguously.



            In fact, the same logic still works in general relativity; acceleration is unambiguous even in a universe without matter. However, in certain philosophical stances inspired by general relativity, the question is trickier because one might take a hardline Machian position, where motion should only be defined in relation to other matter. But in this case you can still answer the question because there is motion relative to the exhaust.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Jun 11 at 8:14

























            answered Jun 10 at 10:02









            knzhouknzhou

            51.5k13 gold badges144 silver badges250 bronze badges




            51.5k13 gold badges144 silver badges250 bronze badges







            • 2




              $begingroup$
              This, I think, is the best way to think about it. Relative velocity is what to focus on.
              $endgroup$
              – CCTO
              Jun 10 at 13:42






            • 4




              $begingroup$
              It's also important that even in general relativity, acceleration is absolute (if you define it correctly). See also physics.stackexchange.com/questions/173
              $endgroup$
              – WorldSEnder
              Jun 10 at 20:04










            • $begingroup$
              @WorldSEnder That’s true! I am referring to the philosophy, partly inspired by GR and probably implicitly held by OP, that only observables involving matter (such as the meeting of two geodesics) are valid. It’s definitely not required by GR but a good number of people had it, including Einstein.
              $endgroup$
              – knzhou
              Jun 10 at 20:09






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              This should be the accepted answer.
              $endgroup$
              – gented
              Jun 11 at 8:26






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              I'd be careful of motion relative to exhaust; you can build a photon drive that only uses light, and the light remains traveling at c regardless of how "fast" you are going, and the photons (with nothing to interact with) instantly leave your light cone once they leave the body of the space ship.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              Jun 11 at 15:52













            • 2




              $begingroup$
              This, I think, is the best way to think about it. Relative velocity is what to focus on.
              $endgroup$
              – CCTO
              Jun 10 at 13:42






            • 4




              $begingroup$
              It's also important that even in general relativity, acceleration is absolute (if you define it correctly). See also physics.stackexchange.com/questions/173
              $endgroup$
              – WorldSEnder
              Jun 10 at 20:04










            • $begingroup$
              @WorldSEnder That’s true! I am referring to the philosophy, partly inspired by GR and probably implicitly held by OP, that only observables involving matter (such as the meeting of two geodesics) are valid. It’s definitely not required by GR but a good number of people had it, including Einstein.
              $endgroup$
              – knzhou
              Jun 10 at 20:09






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              This should be the accepted answer.
              $endgroup$
              – gented
              Jun 11 at 8:26






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              I'd be careful of motion relative to exhaust; you can build a photon drive that only uses light, and the light remains traveling at c regardless of how "fast" you are going, and the photons (with nothing to interact with) instantly leave your light cone once they leave the body of the space ship.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              Jun 11 at 15:52








            2




            2




            $begingroup$
            This, I think, is the best way to think about it. Relative velocity is what to focus on.
            $endgroup$
            – CCTO
            Jun 10 at 13:42




            $begingroup$
            This, I think, is the best way to think about it. Relative velocity is what to focus on.
            $endgroup$
            – CCTO
            Jun 10 at 13:42




            4




            4




            $begingroup$
            It's also important that even in general relativity, acceleration is absolute (if you define it correctly). See also physics.stackexchange.com/questions/173
            $endgroup$
            – WorldSEnder
            Jun 10 at 20:04




            $begingroup$
            It's also important that even in general relativity, acceleration is absolute (if you define it correctly). See also physics.stackexchange.com/questions/173
            $endgroup$
            – WorldSEnder
            Jun 10 at 20:04












            $begingroup$
            @WorldSEnder That’s true! I am referring to the philosophy, partly inspired by GR and probably implicitly held by OP, that only observables involving matter (such as the meeting of two geodesics) are valid. It’s definitely not required by GR but a good number of people had it, including Einstein.
            $endgroup$
            – knzhou
            Jun 10 at 20:09




            $begingroup$
            @WorldSEnder That’s true! I am referring to the philosophy, partly inspired by GR and probably implicitly held by OP, that only observables involving matter (such as the meeting of two geodesics) are valid. It’s definitely not required by GR but a good number of people had it, including Einstein.
            $endgroup$
            – knzhou
            Jun 10 at 20:09




            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            This should be the accepted answer.
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            Jun 11 at 8:26




            $begingroup$
            This should be the accepted answer.
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            Jun 11 at 8:26




            3




            3




            $begingroup$
            I'd be careful of motion relative to exhaust; you can build a photon drive that only uses light, and the light remains traveling at c regardless of how "fast" you are going, and the photons (with nothing to interact with) instantly leave your light cone once they leave the body of the space ship.
            $endgroup$
            – Yakk
            Jun 11 at 15:52





            $begingroup$
            I'd be careful of motion relative to exhaust; you can build a photon drive that only uses light, and the light remains traveling at c regardless of how "fast" you are going, and the photons (with nothing to interact with) instantly leave your light cone once they leave the body of the space ship.
            $endgroup$
            – Yakk
            Jun 11 at 15:52














            26












            $begingroup$

            A rocket's thrusters function by ejecting reaction mass (exhaust). You can measure the movement of the rocket by its distance from its reaction mass. The rocket moves relative to its reactant.



            You can say the rocket didn't move, but not because it can't be measured. The center of mass of a rocket-reactant system* never goes anywhere—not even in our universe**—because the force of the rocket on its reactant is equal and opposite to the force of the reactant on the rocket. In this sense, the rocket-reactant system's center of mass is unaffected by the thrusters because the thrusters are internal to the system in question.



            * Edited for clarity.



            ** Unless acted upon by an outside force.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$








            • 3




              $begingroup$
              What are you talking about? Of course the rockets center of mass will move. The particles it exhausts need not be of comparable weight to the rocket. As a counter example, consider an air filled rocket that propels itself by a pressure difference between the outside, and the air within the container. Once the pressure difference has been equalized, the rocket toy will not weigh significantly less, but it will have moved a great distance.
              $endgroup$
              – user400188
              Jun 10 at 0:53






            • 24




              $begingroup$
              @user400188 Conservation of linear momentum. Nothing can change the center of mass of a system without an outside force.
              $endgroup$
              – Draconis
              Jun 10 at 3:08






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Draconis thank you for reminding me. Sorry for the mistake Isusr
              $endgroup$
              – user400188
              Jun 10 at 4:09






            • 36




              $begingroup$
              I downvoted because this answer fails to distinguish between the rocket (a largely solid entity that gets into orbit) and the exhaust gas (other stuff which is left behind as the rocket accelerates). If you use the word 'rocket' to mean 'solid thing plus all the stuff it ejected' then you can say its centre of mass didn't move, but this is mere word-trickery. Redefining words away from their natural meaning should be announced up-front and justified. Otherwise it merely encourages confusion and meaningless debate.
              $endgroup$
              – Andrew Steane
              Jun 10 at 10:28






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @JohnDvorak, the OP asked explicitly in a completely empty space. No earth, no other planets or stars.
              $endgroup$
              – Mayou36
              Jun 10 at 19:17















            26












            $begingroup$

            A rocket's thrusters function by ejecting reaction mass (exhaust). You can measure the movement of the rocket by its distance from its reaction mass. The rocket moves relative to its reactant.



            You can say the rocket didn't move, but not because it can't be measured. The center of mass of a rocket-reactant system* never goes anywhere—not even in our universe**—because the force of the rocket on its reactant is equal and opposite to the force of the reactant on the rocket. In this sense, the rocket-reactant system's center of mass is unaffected by the thrusters because the thrusters are internal to the system in question.



            * Edited for clarity.



            ** Unless acted upon by an outside force.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$








            • 3




              $begingroup$
              What are you talking about? Of course the rockets center of mass will move. The particles it exhausts need not be of comparable weight to the rocket. As a counter example, consider an air filled rocket that propels itself by a pressure difference between the outside, and the air within the container. Once the pressure difference has been equalized, the rocket toy will not weigh significantly less, but it will have moved a great distance.
              $endgroup$
              – user400188
              Jun 10 at 0:53






            • 24




              $begingroup$
              @user400188 Conservation of linear momentum. Nothing can change the center of mass of a system without an outside force.
              $endgroup$
              – Draconis
              Jun 10 at 3:08






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Draconis thank you for reminding me. Sorry for the mistake Isusr
              $endgroup$
              – user400188
              Jun 10 at 4:09






            • 36




              $begingroup$
              I downvoted because this answer fails to distinguish between the rocket (a largely solid entity that gets into orbit) and the exhaust gas (other stuff which is left behind as the rocket accelerates). If you use the word 'rocket' to mean 'solid thing plus all the stuff it ejected' then you can say its centre of mass didn't move, but this is mere word-trickery. Redefining words away from their natural meaning should be announced up-front and justified. Otherwise it merely encourages confusion and meaningless debate.
              $endgroup$
              – Andrew Steane
              Jun 10 at 10:28






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @JohnDvorak, the OP asked explicitly in a completely empty space. No earth, no other planets or stars.
              $endgroup$
              – Mayou36
              Jun 10 at 19:17













            26












            26








            26





            $begingroup$

            A rocket's thrusters function by ejecting reaction mass (exhaust). You can measure the movement of the rocket by its distance from its reaction mass. The rocket moves relative to its reactant.



            You can say the rocket didn't move, but not because it can't be measured. The center of mass of a rocket-reactant system* never goes anywhere—not even in our universe**—because the force of the rocket on its reactant is equal and opposite to the force of the reactant on the rocket. In this sense, the rocket-reactant system's center of mass is unaffected by the thrusters because the thrusters are internal to the system in question.



            * Edited for clarity.



            ** Unless acted upon by an outside force.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            A rocket's thrusters function by ejecting reaction mass (exhaust). You can measure the movement of the rocket by its distance from its reaction mass. The rocket moves relative to its reactant.



            You can say the rocket didn't move, but not because it can't be measured. The center of mass of a rocket-reactant system* never goes anywhere—not even in our universe**—because the force of the rocket on its reactant is equal and opposite to the force of the reactant on the rocket. In this sense, the rocket-reactant system's center of mass is unaffected by the thrusters because the thrusters are internal to the system in question.



            * Edited for clarity.



            ** Unless acted upon by an outside force.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Jun 12 at 9:58









            uhoh

            2,3362 gold badges13 silver badges51 bronze badges




            2,3362 gold badges13 silver badges51 bronze badges










            answered Jun 9 at 10:40









            lsusrlsusr

            9324 silver badges10 bronze badges




            9324 silver badges10 bronze badges







            • 3




              $begingroup$
              What are you talking about? Of course the rockets center of mass will move. The particles it exhausts need not be of comparable weight to the rocket. As a counter example, consider an air filled rocket that propels itself by a pressure difference between the outside, and the air within the container. Once the pressure difference has been equalized, the rocket toy will not weigh significantly less, but it will have moved a great distance.
              $endgroup$
              – user400188
              Jun 10 at 0:53






            • 24




              $begingroup$
              @user400188 Conservation of linear momentum. Nothing can change the center of mass of a system without an outside force.
              $endgroup$
              – Draconis
              Jun 10 at 3:08






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Draconis thank you for reminding me. Sorry for the mistake Isusr
              $endgroup$
              – user400188
              Jun 10 at 4:09






            • 36




              $begingroup$
              I downvoted because this answer fails to distinguish between the rocket (a largely solid entity that gets into orbit) and the exhaust gas (other stuff which is left behind as the rocket accelerates). If you use the word 'rocket' to mean 'solid thing plus all the stuff it ejected' then you can say its centre of mass didn't move, but this is mere word-trickery. Redefining words away from their natural meaning should be announced up-front and justified. Otherwise it merely encourages confusion and meaningless debate.
              $endgroup$
              – Andrew Steane
              Jun 10 at 10:28






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @JohnDvorak, the OP asked explicitly in a completely empty space. No earth, no other planets or stars.
              $endgroup$
              – Mayou36
              Jun 10 at 19:17












            • 3




              $begingroup$
              What are you talking about? Of course the rockets center of mass will move. The particles it exhausts need not be of comparable weight to the rocket. As a counter example, consider an air filled rocket that propels itself by a pressure difference between the outside, and the air within the container. Once the pressure difference has been equalized, the rocket toy will not weigh significantly less, but it will have moved a great distance.
              $endgroup$
              – user400188
              Jun 10 at 0:53






            • 24




              $begingroup$
              @user400188 Conservation of linear momentum. Nothing can change the center of mass of a system without an outside force.
              $endgroup$
              – Draconis
              Jun 10 at 3:08






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Draconis thank you for reminding me. Sorry for the mistake Isusr
              $endgroup$
              – user400188
              Jun 10 at 4:09






            • 36




              $begingroup$
              I downvoted because this answer fails to distinguish between the rocket (a largely solid entity that gets into orbit) and the exhaust gas (other stuff which is left behind as the rocket accelerates). If you use the word 'rocket' to mean 'solid thing plus all the stuff it ejected' then you can say its centre of mass didn't move, but this is mere word-trickery. Redefining words away from their natural meaning should be announced up-front and justified. Otherwise it merely encourages confusion and meaningless debate.
              $endgroup$
              – Andrew Steane
              Jun 10 at 10:28






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @JohnDvorak, the OP asked explicitly in a completely empty space. No earth, no other planets or stars.
              $endgroup$
              – Mayou36
              Jun 10 at 19:17







            3




            3




            $begingroup$
            What are you talking about? Of course the rockets center of mass will move. The particles it exhausts need not be of comparable weight to the rocket. As a counter example, consider an air filled rocket that propels itself by a pressure difference between the outside, and the air within the container. Once the pressure difference has been equalized, the rocket toy will not weigh significantly less, but it will have moved a great distance.
            $endgroup$
            – user400188
            Jun 10 at 0:53




            $begingroup$
            What are you talking about? Of course the rockets center of mass will move. The particles it exhausts need not be of comparable weight to the rocket. As a counter example, consider an air filled rocket that propels itself by a pressure difference between the outside, and the air within the container. Once the pressure difference has been equalized, the rocket toy will not weigh significantly less, but it will have moved a great distance.
            $endgroup$
            – user400188
            Jun 10 at 0:53




            24




            24




            $begingroup$
            @user400188 Conservation of linear momentum. Nothing can change the center of mass of a system without an outside force.
            $endgroup$
            – Draconis
            Jun 10 at 3:08




            $begingroup$
            @user400188 Conservation of linear momentum. Nothing can change the center of mass of a system without an outside force.
            $endgroup$
            – Draconis
            Jun 10 at 3:08




            3




            3




            $begingroup$
            @Draconis thank you for reminding me. Sorry for the mistake Isusr
            $endgroup$
            – user400188
            Jun 10 at 4:09




            $begingroup$
            @Draconis thank you for reminding me. Sorry for the mistake Isusr
            $endgroup$
            – user400188
            Jun 10 at 4:09




            36




            36




            $begingroup$
            I downvoted because this answer fails to distinguish between the rocket (a largely solid entity that gets into orbit) and the exhaust gas (other stuff which is left behind as the rocket accelerates). If you use the word 'rocket' to mean 'solid thing plus all the stuff it ejected' then you can say its centre of mass didn't move, but this is mere word-trickery. Redefining words away from their natural meaning should be announced up-front and justified. Otherwise it merely encourages confusion and meaningless debate.
            $endgroup$
            – Andrew Steane
            Jun 10 at 10:28




            $begingroup$
            I downvoted because this answer fails to distinguish between the rocket (a largely solid entity that gets into orbit) and the exhaust gas (other stuff which is left behind as the rocket accelerates). If you use the word 'rocket' to mean 'solid thing plus all the stuff it ejected' then you can say its centre of mass didn't move, but this is mere word-trickery. Redefining words away from their natural meaning should be announced up-front and justified. Otherwise it merely encourages confusion and meaningless debate.
            $endgroup$
            – Andrew Steane
            Jun 10 at 10:28




            3




            3




            $begingroup$
            @JohnDvorak, the OP asked explicitly in a completely empty space. No earth, no other planets or stars.
            $endgroup$
            – Mayou36
            Jun 10 at 19:17




            $begingroup$
            @JohnDvorak, the OP asked explicitly in a completely empty space. No earth, no other planets or stars.
            $endgroup$
            – Mayou36
            Jun 10 at 19:17











            19












            $begingroup$


            how can we say a rocket accelerates in empty space ?




            According to third Newton law, body in a rocket will experience pseudo-force with direction opposite to that of rocket acceleration. That is - rocket acceleration will induce body weight which can be observed / measured :
            enter image description here



            It's much like water "feels" centrifugal force. What you actually will not be able to distinguish is that if rocket flies with acceleration OR if it has already landed at some planet given that astronauts were sleeping in a journey and no windows to see planet surface and rocket's dashboard is broken showing false acceleration. It is a direct conclusion of Equivalence principle.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$

















              19












              $begingroup$


              how can we say a rocket accelerates in empty space ?




              According to third Newton law, body in a rocket will experience pseudo-force with direction opposite to that of rocket acceleration. That is - rocket acceleration will induce body weight which can be observed / measured :
              enter image description here



              It's much like water "feels" centrifugal force. What you actually will not be able to distinguish is that if rocket flies with acceleration OR if it has already landed at some planet given that astronauts were sleeping in a journey and no windows to see planet surface and rocket's dashboard is broken showing false acceleration. It is a direct conclusion of Equivalence principle.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$















                19












                19








                19





                $begingroup$


                how can we say a rocket accelerates in empty space ?




                According to third Newton law, body in a rocket will experience pseudo-force with direction opposite to that of rocket acceleration. That is - rocket acceleration will induce body weight which can be observed / measured :
                enter image description here



                It's much like water "feels" centrifugal force. What you actually will not be able to distinguish is that if rocket flies with acceleration OR if it has already landed at some planet given that astronauts were sleeping in a journey and no windows to see planet surface and rocket's dashboard is broken showing false acceleration. It is a direct conclusion of Equivalence principle.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$




                how can we say a rocket accelerates in empty space ?




                According to third Newton law, body in a rocket will experience pseudo-force with direction opposite to that of rocket acceleration. That is - rocket acceleration will induce body weight which can be observed / measured :
                enter image description here



                It's much like water "feels" centrifugal force. What you actually will not be able to distinguish is that if rocket flies with acceleration OR if it has already landed at some planet given that astronauts were sleeping in a journey and no windows to see planet surface and rocket's dashboard is broken showing false acceleration. It is a direct conclusion of Equivalence principle.







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered Jun 10 at 8:16









                Agnius VasiliauskasAgnius Vasiliauskas

                3828 bronze badges




                3828 bronze badges





















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    If we set up the universe using Newton's mechanics, we can get a (mostly useless) definition of absolute velocity from the big bang itself. If momentum is conserved while energy is not (which it cannot be), absolute velocity is defined from the big bang's initial reference frame.



                    We can do the same in general relativity for some sets of initial conditions but not others, but there is no simple proof for this because conservation of momentum and conservation of energy are linked in general relativity. In all of the ones for which this works, the absolute velocity is equivalent to the velocity of the cosmic background radiation.



                    Rockets accelerate by pushing mass out the back. The weak forces resulting from CMB interaction are negligible for any reasonable rocket, therefore if fired in deep space, the reasonable reference frame is the initial frame of the rocket, and there is no change to position of the center of mass of rocket + exhaust. As we should expect from this, engine efficiency is exponential with engine exhaust velocity.



                    So, the effective answer to your question is "we don't care". The laws of physics from the time of Newton never really cared what the effective frame is. If you take the laws of physics and take the limit* as $c$ goes to infinity, Newton's mechanics drop out again.



                    *Yes I know taking the limit of a constant makes no mathematical sense. What we're looking for is reintroducing Newton's assumption that the speed of light is too large to matter for anything else.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$








                    • 2




                      $begingroup$
                      I don't see a big bang in the OP's described universe?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 17:03










                    • $begingroup$
                      @Yakk: I also do not see anything in it to make Noether's theorem on momentum not apply.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Joshua
                      Jun 12 at 0:13
















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    If we set up the universe using Newton's mechanics, we can get a (mostly useless) definition of absolute velocity from the big bang itself. If momentum is conserved while energy is not (which it cannot be), absolute velocity is defined from the big bang's initial reference frame.



                    We can do the same in general relativity for some sets of initial conditions but not others, but there is no simple proof for this because conservation of momentum and conservation of energy are linked in general relativity. In all of the ones for which this works, the absolute velocity is equivalent to the velocity of the cosmic background radiation.



                    Rockets accelerate by pushing mass out the back. The weak forces resulting from CMB interaction are negligible for any reasonable rocket, therefore if fired in deep space, the reasonable reference frame is the initial frame of the rocket, and there is no change to position of the center of mass of rocket + exhaust. As we should expect from this, engine efficiency is exponential with engine exhaust velocity.



                    So, the effective answer to your question is "we don't care". The laws of physics from the time of Newton never really cared what the effective frame is. If you take the laws of physics and take the limit* as $c$ goes to infinity, Newton's mechanics drop out again.



                    *Yes I know taking the limit of a constant makes no mathematical sense. What we're looking for is reintroducing Newton's assumption that the speed of light is too large to matter for anything else.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$








                    • 2




                      $begingroup$
                      I don't see a big bang in the OP's described universe?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 17:03










                    • $begingroup$
                      @Yakk: I also do not see anything in it to make Noether's theorem on momentum not apply.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Joshua
                      Jun 12 at 0:13














                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    If we set up the universe using Newton's mechanics, we can get a (mostly useless) definition of absolute velocity from the big bang itself. If momentum is conserved while energy is not (which it cannot be), absolute velocity is defined from the big bang's initial reference frame.



                    We can do the same in general relativity for some sets of initial conditions but not others, but there is no simple proof for this because conservation of momentum and conservation of energy are linked in general relativity. In all of the ones for which this works, the absolute velocity is equivalent to the velocity of the cosmic background radiation.



                    Rockets accelerate by pushing mass out the back. The weak forces resulting from CMB interaction are negligible for any reasonable rocket, therefore if fired in deep space, the reasonable reference frame is the initial frame of the rocket, and there is no change to position of the center of mass of rocket + exhaust. As we should expect from this, engine efficiency is exponential with engine exhaust velocity.



                    So, the effective answer to your question is "we don't care". The laws of physics from the time of Newton never really cared what the effective frame is. If you take the laws of physics and take the limit* as $c$ goes to infinity, Newton's mechanics drop out again.



                    *Yes I know taking the limit of a constant makes no mathematical sense. What we're looking for is reintroducing Newton's assumption that the speed of light is too large to matter for anything else.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    If we set up the universe using Newton's mechanics, we can get a (mostly useless) definition of absolute velocity from the big bang itself. If momentum is conserved while energy is not (which it cannot be), absolute velocity is defined from the big bang's initial reference frame.



                    We can do the same in general relativity for some sets of initial conditions but not others, but there is no simple proof for this because conservation of momentum and conservation of energy are linked in general relativity. In all of the ones for which this works, the absolute velocity is equivalent to the velocity of the cosmic background radiation.



                    Rockets accelerate by pushing mass out the back. The weak forces resulting from CMB interaction are negligible for any reasonable rocket, therefore if fired in deep space, the reasonable reference frame is the initial frame of the rocket, and there is no change to position of the center of mass of rocket + exhaust. As we should expect from this, engine efficiency is exponential with engine exhaust velocity.



                    So, the effective answer to your question is "we don't care". The laws of physics from the time of Newton never really cared what the effective frame is. If you take the laws of physics and take the limit* as $c$ goes to infinity, Newton's mechanics drop out again.



                    *Yes I know taking the limit of a constant makes no mathematical sense. What we're looking for is reintroducing Newton's assumption that the speed of light is too large to matter for anything else.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Jun 9 at 18:50









                    JoshuaJoshua

                    7343 silver badges11 bronze badges




                    7343 silver badges11 bronze badges







                    • 2




                      $begingroup$
                      I don't see a big bang in the OP's described universe?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 17:03










                    • $begingroup$
                      @Yakk: I also do not see anything in it to make Noether's theorem on momentum not apply.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Joshua
                      Jun 12 at 0:13













                    • 2




                      $begingroup$
                      I don't see a big bang in the OP's described universe?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 17:03










                    • $begingroup$
                      @Yakk: I also do not see anything in it to make Noether's theorem on momentum not apply.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Joshua
                      Jun 12 at 0:13








                    2




                    2




                    $begingroup$
                    I don't see a big bang in the OP's described universe?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Yakk
                    Jun 11 at 17:03




                    $begingroup$
                    I don't see a big bang in the OP's described universe?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Yakk
                    Jun 11 at 17:03












                    $begingroup$
                    @Yakk: I also do not see anything in it to make Noether's theorem on momentum not apply.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Joshua
                    Jun 12 at 0:13





                    $begingroup$
                    @Yakk: I also do not see anything in it to make Noether's theorem on momentum not apply.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Joshua
                    Jun 12 at 0:13












                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    Acceleration and relative velocities



                    An absolute velocity can not be measured, that's correct. But an absolute acceleration can. E.g. with a simple scale.



                    Measuring the acceleration, you can know your velocity. This is a system that is e.g. already since long time used in airplanes known as inertial navigation system.



                    There is the other part, the relative velocity, as already mentioned in other answers: while the absolute velocity is not measurable, differences are. And in this case the difference to the exhaust of the rocket can be measured.



                    Relative velocities are the only ones that actually matter.






                    share|cite|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$












                    • $begingroup$
                      Distance to emitted photons cannot be measured. So with a photon drive does your answer change?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 16:06










                    • $begingroup$
                      Why not? I know the position of a star and can measure it's photons. Since I am here and the star is there, I know the distance. If you refer to "cannot be measured by the emitter only without any additional tools (like photon detectors placed somewhere away", then I agree. Sure, it's not just velocity in the case of a photon, you take it's wavelength and energy conservation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mayou36
                      Jun 11 at 21:17










                    • $begingroup$
                      there is nothing else in the universe. I guess you could drop a mirror and fire photons at it.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 22:36










                    • $begingroup$
                      @Yakk yes, but then again a mirror is another object. So I would leave it as: in principle the relative exhaust velocity can even be measured with a photon drive. Practically, to be slightly picky, if there is nothing else in the universe, neither the photons nor any other exhaust can be measured (you won't even see it, there is no light). Measurement equipment allowed -> relative distances works. No "external" equipment -> acceleration only measurable (inside rocket a scale is available I guess). Do you agree?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mayou36
                      Jun 12 at 8:28















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    Acceleration and relative velocities



                    An absolute velocity can not be measured, that's correct. But an absolute acceleration can. E.g. with a simple scale.



                    Measuring the acceleration, you can know your velocity. This is a system that is e.g. already since long time used in airplanes known as inertial navigation system.



                    There is the other part, the relative velocity, as already mentioned in other answers: while the absolute velocity is not measurable, differences are. And in this case the difference to the exhaust of the rocket can be measured.



                    Relative velocities are the only ones that actually matter.






                    share|cite|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$












                    • $begingroup$
                      Distance to emitted photons cannot be measured. So with a photon drive does your answer change?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 16:06










                    • $begingroup$
                      Why not? I know the position of a star and can measure it's photons. Since I am here and the star is there, I know the distance. If you refer to "cannot be measured by the emitter only without any additional tools (like photon detectors placed somewhere away", then I agree. Sure, it's not just velocity in the case of a photon, you take it's wavelength and energy conservation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mayou36
                      Jun 11 at 21:17










                    • $begingroup$
                      there is nothing else in the universe. I guess you could drop a mirror and fire photons at it.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 22:36










                    • $begingroup$
                      @Yakk yes, but then again a mirror is another object. So I would leave it as: in principle the relative exhaust velocity can even be measured with a photon drive. Practically, to be slightly picky, if there is nothing else in the universe, neither the photons nor any other exhaust can be measured (you won't even see it, there is no light). Measurement equipment allowed -> relative distances works. No "external" equipment -> acceleration only measurable (inside rocket a scale is available I guess). Do you agree?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mayou36
                      Jun 12 at 8:28













                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    Acceleration and relative velocities



                    An absolute velocity can not be measured, that's correct. But an absolute acceleration can. E.g. with a simple scale.



                    Measuring the acceleration, you can know your velocity. This is a system that is e.g. already since long time used in airplanes known as inertial navigation system.



                    There is the other part, the relative velocity, as already mentioned in other answers: while the absolute velocity is not measurable, differences are. And in this case the difference to the exhaust of the rocket can be measured.



                    Relative velocities are the only ones that actually matter.






                    share|cite|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    Acceleration and relative velocities



                    An absolute velocity can not be measured, that's correct. But an absolute acceleration can. E.g. with a simple scale.



                    Measuring the acceleration, you can know your velocity. This is a system that is e.g. already since long time used in airplanes known as inertial navigation system.



                    There is the other part, the relative velocity, as already mentioned in other answers: while the absolute velocity is not measurable, differences are. And in this case the difference to the exhaust of the rocket can be measured.



                    Relative velocities are the only ones that actually matter.







                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    edited Jun 11 at 21:23









                    Floris

                    108k11 gold badges194 silver badges330 bronze badges




                    108k11 gold badges194 silver badges330 bronze badges










                    answered Jun 10 at 14:54









                    Mayou36Mayou36

                    4822 silver badges7 bronze badges




                    4822 silver badges7 bronze badges











                    • $begingroup$
                      Distance to emitted photons cannot be measured. So with a photon drive does your answer change?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 16:06










                    • $begingroup$
                      Why not? I know the position of a star and can measure it's photons. Since I am here and the star is there, I know the distance. If you refer to "cannot be measured by the emitter only without any additional tools (like photon detectors placed somewhere away", then I agree. Sure, it's not just velocity in the case of a photon, you take it's wavelength and energy conservation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mayou36
                      Jun 11 at 21:17










                    • $begingroup$
                      there is nothing else in the universe. I guess you could drop a mirror and fire photons at it.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 22:36










                    • $begingroup$
                      @Yakk yes, but then again a mirror is another object. So I would leave it as: in principle the relative exhaust velocity can even be measured with a photon drive. Practically, to be slightly picky, if there is nothing else in the universe, neither the photons nor any other exhaust can be measured (you won't even see it, there is no light). Measurement equipment allowed -> relative distances works. No "external" equipment -> acceleration only measurable (inside rocket a scale is available I guess). Do you agree?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mayou36
                      Jun 12 at 8:28
















                    • $begingroup$
                      Distance to emitted photons cannot be measured. So with a photon drive does your answer change?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 16:06










                    • $begingroup$
                      Why not? I know the position of a star and can measure it's photons. Since I am here and the star is there, I know the distance. If you refer to "cannot be measured by the emitter only without any additional tools (like photon detectors placed somewhere away", then I agree. Sure, it's not just velocity in the case of a photon, you take it's wavelength and energy conservation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mayou36
                      Jun 11 at 21:17










                    • $begingroup$
                      there is nothing else in the universe. I guess you could drop a mirror and fire photons at it.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Yakk
                      Jun 11 at 22:36










                    • $begingroup$
                      @Yakk yes, but then again a mirror is another object. So I would leave it as: in principle the relative exhaust velocity can even be measured with a photon drive. Practically, to be slightly picky, if there is nothing else in the universe, neither the photons nor any other exhaust can be measured (you won't even see it, there is no light). Measurement equipment allowed -> relative distances works. No "external" equipment -> acceleration only measurable (inside rocket a scale is available I guess). Do you agree?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mayou36
                      Jun 12 at 8:28















                    $begingroup$
                    Distance to emitted photons cannot be measured. So with a photon drive does your answer change?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Yakk
                    Jun 11 at 16:06




                    $begingroup$
                    Distance to emitted photons cannot be measured. So with a photon drive does your answer change?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Yakk
                    Jun 11 at 16:06












                    $begingroup$
                    Why not? I know the position of a star and can measure it's photons. Since I am here and the star is there, I know the distance. If you refer to "cannot be measured by the emitter only without any additional tools (like photon detectors placed somewhere away", then I agree. Sure, it's not just velocity in the case of a photon, you take it's wavelength and energy conservation.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Mayou36
                    Jun 11 at 21:17




                    $begingroup$
                    Why not? I know the position of a star and can measure it's photons. Since I am here and the star is there, I know the distance. If you refer to "cannot be measured by the emitter only without any additional tools (like photon detectors placed somewhere away", then I agree. Sure, it's not just velocity in the case of a photon, you take it's wavelength and energy conservation.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Mayou36
                    Jun 11 at 21:17












                    $begingroup$
                    there is nothing else in the universe. I guess you could drop a mirror and fire photons at it.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Yakk
                    Jun 11 at 22:36




                    $begingroup$
                    there is nothing else in the universe. I guess you could drop a mirror and fire photons at it.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Yakk
                    Jun 11 at 22:36












                    $begingroup$
                    @Yakk yes, but then again a mirror is another object. So I would leave it as: in principle the relative exhaust velocity can even be measured with a photon drive. Practically, to be slightly picky, if there is nothing else in the universe, neither the photons nor any other exhaust can be measured (you won't even see it, there is no light). Measurement equipment allowed -> relative distances works. No "external" equipment -> acceleration only measurable (inside rocket a scale is available I guess). Do you agree?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Mayou36
                    Jun 12 at 8:28




                    $begingroup$
                    @Yakk yes, but then again a mirror is another object. So I would leave it as: in principle the relative exhaust velocity can even be measured with a photon drive. Practically, to be slightly picky, if there is nothing else in the universe, neither the photons nor any other exhaust can be measured (you won't even see it, there is no light). Measurement equipment allowed -> relative distances works. No "external" equipment -> acceleration only measurable (inside rocket a scale is available I guess). Do you agree?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Mayou36
                    Jun 12 at 8:28











                    1












                    $begingroup$

                    if it is a universe with the same dimensions and physical laws as our own, then the rocket would move per action and reaction, whether or not there was any other mass or energy in the universe. Then the rocket would be moving away from the gasses it expelled.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$

















                      1












                      $begingroup$

                      if it is a universe with the same dimensions and physical laws as our own, then the rocket would move per action and reaction, whether or not there was any other mass or energy in the universe. Then the rocket would be moving away from the gasses it expelled.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$















                        1












                        1








                        1





                        $begingroup$

                        if it is a universe with the same dimensions and physical laws as our own, then the rocket would move per action and reaction, whether or not there was any other mass or energy in the universe. Then the rocket would be moving away from the gasses it expelled.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$



                        if it is a universe with the same dimensions and physical laws as our own, then the rocket would move per action and reaction, whether or not there was any other mass or energy in the universe. Then the rocket would be moving away from the gasses it expelled.







                        share|cite|improve this answer












                        share|cite|improve this answer



                        share|cite|improve this answer










                        answered Jun 9 at 8:55









                        Adrian HowardAdrian Howard

                        3066 bronze badges




                        3066 bronze badges





















                            1












                            $begingroup$

                            from whatever i have read this is a fundamental open q. properties of space and time are not known in an "empty" universe and hence concept of motion is not clearly understood.
                            you might want to read about spinning water bucket thought experiment






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$

















                              1












                              $begingroup$

                              from whatever i have read this is a fundamental open q. properties of space and time are not known in an "empty" universe and hence concept of motion is not clearly understood.
                              you might want to read about spinning water bucket thought experiment






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$















                                1












                                1








                                1





                                $begingroup$

                                from whatever i have read this is a fundamental open q. properties of space and time are not known in an "empty" universe and hence concept of motion is not clearly understood.
                                you might want to read about spinning water bucket thought experiment






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$



                                from whatever i have read this is a fundamental open q. properties of space and time are not known in an "empty" universe and hence concept of motion is not clearly understood.
                                you might want to read about spinning water bucket thought experiment







                                share|cite|improve this answer












                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                answered Jun 9 at 10:14









                                aman_ccaman_cc

                                377 bronze badges




                                377 bronze badges





















                                    1












                                    $begingroup$

                                    I will firstly answer in the context of relativity. The proper acceleration, meaning the acceleration as measured in the reference frame of the rocket, which is related to the "force" felt by the rocket, is independent of its velocity (relative to any other observer). However the rocket's acceleration as measured in other reference frames does depend on the relative velocity: $vec a' = vec a/gamma^3$, where $gamma := (1-(v/c)^2)^-1/2$ is the Lorentz factor. Hence other frames measure a lower acceleration for the rocket. The "$vec a$" terms are accelerations in space (3-accelerations) to be precise; also this simple formula applies only when the relative velocity lines up with the acceleration direction (again, I mean in space only). Tsamplaris 2010 is a nice reference, see $S7.2$.



                                    To take a very different perspective, from philosophy of physics and Newtonian gravity, you can actually define or interpret "acceleration" as relative if you really want to. (I mention this as a curiosity only, and if the reader is pragmatic or prefers a simple answer then ignore this and just say "acceleration is absolute".) John Norton, in a 1995 article subtitled "Acceleration is relative", writes




                                    Relativity of Acceleration



                                    The decomposition of gravitational free fall into an inertial trajectory and a gravitational deflection is
                                    conventional; we are free to divide free fall motion into any
                                    combination of inertial motion and gravitational deflection we please,
                                    as long as the latter corresponds to a gravitational potential
                                    satisfying Poisson's equation.




                                    Presumably this could be extended to the rocket example here.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$

















                                      1












                                      $begingroup$

                                      I will firstly answer in the context of relativity. The proper acceleration, meaning the acceleration as measured in the reference frame of the rocket, which is related to the "force" felt by the rocket, is independent of its velocity (relative to any other observer). However the rocket's acceleration as measured in other reference frames does depend on the relative velocity: $vec a' = vec a/gamma^3$, where $gamma := (1-(v/c)^2)^-1/2$ is the Lorentz factor. Hence other frames measure a lower acceleration for the rocket. The "$vec a$" terms are accelerations in space (3-accelerations) to be precise; also this simple formula applies only when the relative velocity lines up with the acceleration direction (again, I mean in space only). Tsamplaris 2010 is a nice reference, see $S7.2$.



                                      To take a very different perspective, from philosophy of physics and Newtonian gravity, you can actually define or interpret "acceleration" as relative if you really want to. (I mention this as a curiosity only, and if the reader is pragmatic or prefers a simple answer then ignore this and just say "acceleration is absolute".) John Norton, in a 1995 article subtitled "Acceleration is relative", writes




                                      Relativity of Acceleration



                                      The decomposition of gravitational free fall into an inertial trajectory and a gravitational deflection is
                                      conventional; we are free to divide free fall motion into any
                                      combination of inertial motion and gravitational deflection we please,
                                      as long as the latter corresponds to a gravitational potential
                                      satisfying Poisson's equation.




                                      Presumably this could be extended to the rocket example here.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$















                                        1












                                        1








                                        1





                                        $begingroup$

                                        I will firstly answer in the context of relativity. The proper acceleration, meaning the acceleration as measured in the reference frame of the rocket, which is related to the "force" felt by the rocket, is independent of its velocity (relative to any other observer). However the rocket's acceleration as measured in other reference frames does depend on the relative velocity: $vec a' = vec a/gamma^3$, where $gamma := (1-(v/c)^2)^-1/2$ is the Lorentz factor. Hence other frames measure a lower acceleration for the rocket. The "$vec a$" terms are accelerations in space (3-accelerations) to be precise; also this simple formula applies only when the relative velocity lines up with the acceleration direction (again, I mean in space only). Tsamplaris 2010 is a nice reference, see $S7.2$.



                                        To take a very different perspective, from philosophy of physics and Newtonian gravity, you can actually define or interpret "acceleration" as relative if you really want to. (I mention this as a curiosity only, and if the reader is pragmatic or prefers a simple answer then ignore this and just say "acceleration is absolute".) John Norton, in a 1995 article subtitled "Acceleration is relative", writes




                                        Relativity of Acceleration



                                        The decomposition of gravitational free fall into an inertial trajectory and a gravitational deflection is
                                        conventional; we are free to divide free fall motion into any
                                        combination of inertial motion and gravitational deflection we please,
                                        as long as the latter corresponds to a gravitational potential
                                        satisfying Poisson's equation.




                                        Presumably this could be extended to the rocket example here.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$



                                        I will firstly answer in the context of relativity. The proper acceleration, meaning the acceleration as measured in the reference frame of the rocket, which is related to the "force" felt by the rocket, is independent of its velocity (relative to any other observer). However the rocket's acceleration as measured in other reference frames does depend on the relative velocity: $vec a' = vec a/gamma^3$, where $gamma := (1-(v/c)^2)^-1/2$ is the Lorentz factor. Hence other frames measure a lower acceleration for the rocket. The "$vec a$" terms are accelerations in space (3-accelerations) to be precise; also this simple formula applies only when the relative velocity lines up with the acceleration direction (again, I mean in space only). Tsamplaris 2010 is a nice reference, see $S7.2$.



                                        To take a very different perspective, from philosophy of physics and Newtonian gravity, you can actually define or interpret "acceleration" as relative if you really want to. (I mention this as a curiosity only, and if the reader is pragmatic or prefers a simple answer then ignore this and just say "acceleration is absolute".) John Norton, in a 1995 article subtitled "Acceleration is relative", writes




                                        Relativity of Acceleration



                                        The decomposition of gravitational free fall into an inertial trajectory and a gravitational deflection is
                                        conventional; we are free to divide free fall motion into any
                                        combination of inertial motion and gravitational deflection we please,
                                        as long as the latter corresponds to a gravitational potential
                                        satisfying Poisson's equation.




                                        Presumably this could be extended to the rocket example here.







                                        share|cite|improve this answer












                                        share|cite|improve this answer



                                        share|cite|improve this answer










                                        answered Jun 12 at 3:44









                                        Colin MacLaurinColin MacLaurin

                                        4971 silver badge12 bronze badges




                                        4971 silver badge12 bronze badges





















                                            0












                                            $begingroup$

                                            The instant your rocket begins to accelerate, the space it’s in is no longer “empty except for the rocket”. Because you now also have the rocket’s reaction mass, and that gives you something else against which its movement can be measured.






                                            share|cite|improve this answer









                                            $endgroup$

















                                              0












                                              $begingroup$

                                              The instant your rocket begins to accelerate, the space it’s in is no longer “empty except for the rocket”. Because you now also have the rocket’s reaction mass, and that gives you something else against which its movement can be measured.






                                              share|cite|improve this answer









                                              $endgroup$















                                                0












                                                0








                                                0





                                                $begingroup$

                                                The instant your rocket begins to accelerate, the space it’s in is no longer “empty except for the rocket”. Because you now also have the rocket’s reaction mass, and that gives you something else against which its movement can be measured.






                                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                                $endgroup$



                                                The instant your rocket begins to accelerate, the space it’s in is no longer “empty except for the rocket”. Because you now also have the rocket’s reaction mass, and that gives you something else against which its movement can be measured.







                                                share|cite|improve this answer












                                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                                answered Jun 10 at 20:13









                                                Mike ScottMike Scott

                                                1184 bronze badges




                                                1184 bronze badges





















                                                    0












                                                    $begingroup$

                                                    You got "movement" and "acceleration" mixed up.



                                                    "Movement" (in free-fall), i.e. velocity, cannot be measured without outside references. Movement is always in relation to something else.



                                                    But acceleration, i.e. the changing of velocity, can readily be measured without outside references.



                                                    So you can't tell whether a rocket is moving or not if you have no reference, but you can very easily measure if it is accelerating, by how much, and in which direction.






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                                    $endgroup$












                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Movement in free-fall is acceleration, not velocity, because free-fall generally refers to falling under the influence of gravity in the absence of other forces. In the absence of other forces, you cannot measure this acceleration without outside references. It might be worth clarifying that measuring acceleration doesn't really work if it's due to gravity.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – JMac
                                                      Jun 12 at 11:17















                                                    0












                                                    $begingroup$

                                                    You got "movement" and "acceleration" mixed up.



                                                    "Movement" (in free-fall), i.e. velocity, cannot be measured without outside references. Movement is always in relation to something else.



                                                    But acceleration, i.e. the changing of velocity, can readily be measured without outside references.



                                                    So you can't tell whether a rocket is moving or not if you have no reference, but you can very easily measure if it is accelerating, by how much, and in which direction.






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                                    $endgroup$












                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Movement in free-fall is acceleration, not velocity, because free-fall generally refers to falling under the influence of gravity in the absence of other forces. In the absence of other forces, you cannot measure this acceleration without outside references. It might be worth clarifying that measuring acceleration doesn't really work if it's due to gravity.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – JMac
                                                      Jun 12 at 11:17













                                                    0












                                                    0








                                                    0





                                                    $begingroup$

                                                    You got "movement" and "acceleration" mixed up.



                                                    "Movement" (in free-fall), i.e. velocity, cannot be measured without outside references. Movement is always in relation to something else.



                                                    But acceleration, i.e. the changing of velocity, can readily be measured without outside references.



                                                    So you can't tell whether a rocket is moving or not if you have no reference, but you can very easily measure if it is accelerating, by how much, and in which direction.






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                                    $endgroup$



                                                    You got "movement" and "acceleration" mixed up.



                                                    "Movement" (in free-fall), i.e. velocity, cannot be measured without outside references. Movement is always in relation to something else.



                                                    But acceleration, i.e. the changing of velocity, can readily be measured without outside references.



                                                    So you can't tell whether a rocket is moving or not if you have no reference, but you can very easily measure if it is accelerating, by how much, and in which direction.







                                                    share|cite|improve this answer












                                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                                    share|cite|improve this answer










                                                    answered Jun 11 at 6:30









                                                    DevSolarDevSolar

                                                    1831 silver badge9 bronze badges




                                                    1831 silver badge9 bronze badges











                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Movement in free-fall is acceleration, not velocity, because free-fall generally refers to falling under the influence of gravity in the absence of other forces. In the absence of other forces, you cannot measure this acceleration without outside references. It might be worth clarifying that measuring acceleration doesn't really work if it's due to gravity.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – JMac
                                                      Jun 12 at 11:17
















                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Movement in free-fall is acceleration, not velocity, because free-fall generally refers to falling under the influence of gravity in the absence of other forces. In the absence of other forces, you cannot measure this acceleration without outside references. It might be worth clarifying that measuring acceleration doesn't really work if it's due to gravity.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – JMac
                                                      Jun 12 at 11:17















                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    Movement in free-fall is acceleration, not velocity, because free-fall generally refers to falling under the influence of gravity in the absence of other forces. In the absence of other forces, you cannot measure this acceleration without outside references. It might be worth clarifying that measuring acceleration doesn't really work if it's due to gravity.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – JMac
                                                    Jun 12 at 11:17




                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    Movement in free-fall is acceleration, not velocity, because free-fall generally refers to falling under the influence of gravity in the absence of other forces. In the absence of other forces, you cannot measure this acceleration without outside references. It might be worth clarifying that measuring acceleration doesn't really work if it's due to gravity.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – JMac
                                                    Jun 12 at 11:17











                                                    -6












                                                    $begingroup$

                                                    Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity.



                                                    That's the gist of it. It's for this reason that Einstein stated, "space without ether is unthinkable".



                                                    Unfortunately, he was voted down by his peers as this went against everything he said in his theory of spacial relativity. Einstein realized his mistake, but by then, his theory had taken on a life of its own.



                                                    OH yeah, back to the question. Tie a Lazer pointer to a light fitting, pointing straight down. Mark the spot. If the dot moves, you're accelerating in the opposite direction.






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                                    $endgroup$








                                                    • 3




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      "Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity." Nope! Correct statement: without an Ether we cannot observe the definition of absolute velocity experimentally.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Joshua
                                                      Jun 9 at 18:40











                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      @Joshua we can never observe it. Observations are always subjective. All motion is relative for a subjective observer.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – zane scheepers
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:14










                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Two words: CMB frame. Whether we can find the absolute frame by a sufficient degree of cunning, and whether the laws of physics care are two different questions.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Joshua
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:16










                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Technically, that's 4 words. Secondly, how would you know if the entire universe, including the CBM background, isn't moving uniformly through space?
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – zane scheepers
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:22






                                                    • 1




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      Here's the full text. As far as I can tell, what Einstein's calling the "gravitational ether" there is what we would call the "spacetime metric" now.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Michael Seifert
                                                      Jun 10 at 14:33















                                                    -6












                                                    $begingroup$

                                                    Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity.



                                                    That's the gist of it. It's for this reason that Einstein stated, "space without ether is unthinkable".



                                                    Unfortunately, he was voted down by his peers as this went against everything he said in his theory of spacial relativity. Einstein realized his mistake, but by then, his theory had taken on a life of its own.



                                                    OH yeah, back to the question. Tie a Lazer pointer to a light fitting, pointing straight down. Mark the spot. If the dot moves, you're accelerating in the opposite direction.






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                                    $endgroup$








                                                    • 3




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      "Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity." Nope! Correct statement: without an Ether we cannot observe the definition of absolute velocity experimentally.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Joshua
                                                      Jun 9 at 18:40











                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      @Joshua we can never observe it. Observations are always subjective. All motion is relative for a subjective observer.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – zane scheepers
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:14










                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Two words: CMB frame. Whether we can find the absolute frame by a sufficient degree of cunning, and whether the laws of physics care are two different questions.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Joshua
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:16










                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Technically, that's 4 words. Secondly, how would you know if the entire universe, including the CBM background, isn't moving uniformly through space?
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – zane scheepers
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:22






                                                    • 1




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      Here's the full text. As far as I can tell, what Einstein's calling the "gravitational ether" there is what we would call the "spacetime metric" now.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Michael Seifert
                                                      Jun 10 at 14:33













                                                    -6












                                                    -6








                                                    -6





                                                    $begingroup$

                                                    Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity.



                                                    That's the gist of it. It's for this reason that Einstein stated, "space without ether is unthinkable".



                                                    Unfortunately, he was voted down by his peers as this went against everything he said in his theory of spacial relativity. Einstein realized his mistake, but by then, his theory had taken on a life of its own.



                                                    OH yeah, back to the question. Tie a Lazer pointer to a light fitting, pointing straight down. Mark the spot. If the dot moves, you're accelerating in the opposite direction.






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                                    $endgroup$



                                                    Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity.



                                                    That's the gist of it. It's for this reason that Einstein stated, "space without ether is unthinkable".



                                                    Unfortunately, he was voted down by his peers as this went against everything he said in his theory of spacial relativity. Einstein realized his mistake, but by then, his theory had taken on a life of its own.



                                                    OH yeah, back to the question. Tie a Lazer pointer to a light fitting, pointing straight down. Mark the spot. If the dot moves, you're accelerating in the opposite direction.







                                                    share|cite|improve this answer














                                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                                    share|cite|improve this answer








                                                    edited Jun 10 at 23:20

























                                                    answered Jun 9 at 14:20









                                                    zane scheeperszane scheepers

                                                    1461 silver badge7 bronze badges




                                                    1461 silver badge7 bronze badges







                                                    • 3




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      "Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity." Nope! Correct statement: without an Ether we cannot observe the definition of absolute velocity experimentally.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Joshua
                                                      Jun 9 at 18:40











                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      @Joshua we can never observe it. Observations are always subjective. All motion is relative for a subjective observer.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – zane scheepers
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:14










                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Two words: CMB frame. Whether we can find the absolute frame by a sufficient degree of cunning, and whether the laws of physics care are two different questions.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Joshua
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:16










                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Technically, that's 4 words. Secondly, how would you know if the entire universe, including the CBM background, isn't moving uniformly through space?
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – zane scheepers
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:22






                                                    • 1




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      Here's the full text. As far as I can tell, what Einstein's calling the "gravitational ether" there is what we would call the "spacetime metric" now.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Michael Seifert
                                                      Jun 10 at 14:33












                                                    • 3




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      "Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity." Nope! Correct statement: without an Ether we cannot observe the definition of absolute velocity experimentally.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Joshua
                                                      Jun 9 at 18:40











                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      @Joshua we can never observe it. Observations are always subjective. All motion is relative for a subjective observer.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – zane scheepers
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:14










                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Two words: CMB frame. Whether we can find the absolute frame by a sufficient degree of cunning, and whether the laws of physics care are two different questions.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Joshua
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:16










                                                    • $begingroup$
                                                      Technically, that's 4 words. Secondly, how would you know if the entire universe, including the CBM background, isn't moving uniformly through space?
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – zane scheepers
                                                      Jun 9 at 19:22






                                                    • 1




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      Here's the full text. As far as I can tell, what Einstein's calling the "gravitational ether" there is what we would call the "spacetime metric" now.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Michael Seifert
                                                      Jun 10 at 14:33







                                                    3




                                                    3




                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    "Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity." Nope! Correct statement: without an Ether we cannot observe the definition of absolute velocity experimentally.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – Joshua
                                                    Jun 9 at 18:40





                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    "Without an Ether, there can be no absolute velocity." Nope! Correct statement: without an Ether we cannot observe the definition of absolute velocity experimentally.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – Joshua
                                                    Jun 9 at 18:40













                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    @Joshua we can never observe it. Observations are always subjective. All motion is relative for a subjective observer.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – zane scheepers
                                                    Jun 9 at 19:14




                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    @Joshua we can never observe it. Observations are always subjective. All motion is relative for a subjective observer.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – zane scheepers
                                                    Jun 9 at 19:14












                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    Two words: CMB frame. Whether we can find the absolute frame by a sufficient degree of cunning, and whether the laws of physics care are two different questions.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – Joshua
                                                    Jun 9 at 19:16




                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    Two words: CMB frame. Whether we can find the absolute frame by a sufficient degree of cunning, and whether the laws of physics care are two different questions.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – Joshua
                                                    Jun 9 at 19:16












                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    Technically, that's 4 words. Secondly, how would you know if the entire universe, including the CBM background, isn't moving uniformly through space?
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – zane scheepers
                                                    Jun 9 at 19:22




                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    Technically, that's 4 words. Secondly, how would you know if the entire universe, including the CBM background, isn't moving uniformly through space?
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – zane scheepers
                                                    Jun 9 at 19:22




                                                    1




                                                    1




                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    Here's the full text. As far as I can tell, what Einstein's calling the "gravitational ether" there is what we would call the "spacetime metric" now.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – Michael Seifert
                                                    Jun 10 at 14:33




                                                    $begingroup$
                                                    Here's the full text. As far as I can tell, what Einstein's calling the "gravitational ether" there is what we would call the "spacetime metric" now.
                                                    $endgroup$
                                                    – Michael Seifert
                                                    Jun 10 at 14:33





                                                    protected by John Rennie Jun 10 at 10:45



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