What's preferable: to count Sefiras Haomer right at nightfall by oneself OR to count later with a minyan?Sefiras HaOmer - earliest time to countEating before Davening with a Minyan, or Davening at home and not eating till later?Variant on: Is it better to Daven “too early” with a Minyan, or to Daven alone at the right time?Starting the Seder after Sheki'ah (sunset)?Is it more preferable to pray with concentration alone or with a minyan in shul?Is davening a “late” mincha in contradiction with counting an “early” sefira?Are there any halakhic issues with watching television or youtube videos during sefiras haomer?
Speculative Biology of a Haplodiploid Humanoid Species
What does "Ich wusste, dass aus dir mal was wird" mean?
How can dragons propel their breath attacks to a long distance
Why not just directly invest in the holdings of an ETF?
Why doesn't Rocket Lab use a solid stage?
Plastic-on-plastic lubricant that wont leave a residue?
What stroke width Instagram is using for its icons and how to get same results?
A curve pass via points at TiKz
Why was the Ancient One so hesitant to teach Dr. Strange the art of sorcery?
How does noise-cancellation work in Mac laptops?
Why is “Ich wusste, dass aus dir mal was wird” grammitally correct?
How do I tell my supervisor that he is choosing poor replacements for me while I am on maternity leave?
Why was Thor doubtful about his worthiness to Mjolnir?
Proof that the inverse image of a single element is a discrete space
Was there ever any real use for a 6800-based Apple I?
Why is this int array not passed as an object vararg array?
Can 'sudo apt-get remove [write]' destroy my Ubuntu?
Usefulness of complex chord names?
Who was this character from the Tomb of Annihilation adventure before they became a monster?
Understanding integration over Orthogonal Group
Was this character’s old age look CGI or make-up?
List software from restricted, multiverse separately
How can Thor be worthy?
Should these notes be played as a chord or one after another?
What's preferable: to count Sefiras Haomer right at nightfall by oneself OR to count later with a minyan?
Sefiras HaOmer - earliest time to countEating before Davening with a Minyan, or Davening at home and not eating till later?Variant on: Is it better to Daven “too early” with a Minyan, or to Daven alone at the right time?Starting the Seder after Sheki'ah (sunset)?Is it more preferable to pray with concentration alone or with a minyan in shul?Is davening a “late” mincha in contradiction with counting an “early” sefira?Are there any halakhic issues with watching television or youtube videos during sefiras haomer?
I've heard opinions (including The Shulchan Aruch Harav- see footnote #12) that one should always try to count the Sefira within the first half hour of the night, and the earlier the better.
BUT if for example one is planning on attending Ma'ariv minyan later:
- Should a person count Sefirah at nightfall by himself OR wait to count later with a minyan?
(ie is counting earlier b'yichudus better than counting later with a minyan)
halacha sefirat-ha-omer
edited May 2 at 11:50
Double AA♦
79.5k6197431
asked May 2 at 4:31
alichtalicht
3,6751636
add a comment |
I've heard opinions (including The Shulchan Aruch Harav- see footnote #12) that one should always try to count the Sefira within the first half hour of the night, and the earlier the better.
BUT if for example one is planning on attending Ma'ariv minyan later:
- Should a person count Sefirah at nightfall by himself OR wait to count later with a minyan?
(ie is counting earlier b'yichudus better than counting later with a minyan)
halacha sefirat-ha-omer
edited May 2 at 11:50
Double AA♦
79.5k6197431
asked May 2 at 4:31
alichtalicht
3,6751636
1
Thinking out loud: maybe we can also suggest this is a case of "תדיר ושאינו תדיר תדיר קודם" vs "זריזין מקדימין למצוות"?
– alicht
May 2 at 4:43
1
The view from the Alter Rebbe is dealing with the subject of whether the mitzvah falls on the individual or the tzibbur. This is found in Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Orach Chaim vol. 3, 489:1. He says it is better 'to begin with' to follow according to the individual fulfilling. The "תמימות תהיינה" is in regard to the count of the weeks being more complete (the most full weeks) which would mean as soon as you have actual night, each day of sefirah. Delaying for later would be a 'less full' counting.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 13:44
@YaacovDeane ah gotcha- think I should edit it out of the question?
– alicht
May 2 at 13:59
1
What you have stated in the question is accurate. But when it discusses 'ma'ariv', it isn't talking about praying with the minyan. It means the time from 3 medium stars. The sooner the better from that point is what is 'more full' counting. In fact, like Mishnah Berurah points out (and likely Aruch HaShulchan), many, if not majority hold the obligation is only on the individual, not communal. That's why M.B. also discusses hearing the blessing from the Shatz, but counting yourself. See Be'er Heitev in your link.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 14:16
add a comment |
I've heard opinions (including The Shulchan Aruch Harav- see footnote #12) that one should always try to count the Sefira within the first half hour of the night, and the earlier the better.
BUT if for example one is planning on attending Ma'ariv minyan later:
- Should a person count Sefirah at nightfall by himself OR wait to count later with a minyan?
(ie is counting earlier b'yichudus better than counting later with a minyan)
halacha sefirat-ha-omer
edited May 2 at 11:50
Double AA♦
79.5k6197431
asked May 2 at 4:31
alichtalicht
3,6751636
I've heard opinions (including The Shulchan Aruch Harav- see footnote #12) that one should always try to count the Sefira within the first half hour of the night, and the earlier the better.
BUT if for example one is planning on attending Ma'ariv minyan later:
- Should a person count Sefirah at nightfall by himself OR wait to count later with a minyan?
(ie is counting earlier b'yichudus better than counting later with a minyan)
halacha sefirat-ha-omer
halacha sefirat-ha-omer
edited May 2 at 11:50
Double AA♦
79.5k6197431
asked May 2 at 4:31
alichtalicht
3,6751636
edited May 2 at 11:50
Double AA♦
79.5k6197431
asked May 2 at 4:31
alichtalicht
3,6751636
edited May 2 at 11:50
Double AA♦
79.5k6197431
edited May 2 at 11:50
Double AA♦
79.5k6197431
edited May 2 at 11:50
Double AA♦
79.5k6197431
79.5k6197431
asked May 2 at 4:31
alichtalicht
3,6751636
asked May 2 at 4:31
alichtalicht
3,6751636
asked May 2 at 4:31
alichtalicht
3,6751636
3,6751636
1
Thinking out loud: maybe we can also suggest this is a case of "תדיר ושאינו תדיר תדיר קודם" vs "זריזין מקדימין למצוות"?
– alicht
May 2 at 4:43
1
The view from the Alter Rebbe is dealing with the subject of whether the mitzvah falls on the individual or the tzibbur. This is found in Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Orach Chaim vol. 3, 489:1. He says it is better 'to begin with' to follow according to the individual fulfilling. The "תמימות תהיינה" is in regard to the count of the weeks being more complete (the most full weeks) which would mean as soon as you have actual night, each day of sefirah. Delaying for later would be a 'less full' counting.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 13:44
@YaacovDeane ah gotcha- think I should edit it out of the question?
– alicht
May 2 at 13:59
1
What you have stated in the question is accurate. But when it discusses 'ma'ariv', it isn't talking about praying with the minyan. It means the time from 3 medium stars. The sooner the better from that point is what is 'more full' counting. In fact, like Mishnah Berurah points out (and likely Aruch HaShulchan), many, if not majority hold the obligation is only on the individual, not communal. That's why M.B. also discusses hearing the blessing from the Shatz, but counting yourself. See Be'er Heitev in your link.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 14:16
add a comment |
1
Thinking out loud: maybe we can also suggest this is a case of "תדיר ושאינו תדיר תדיר קודם" vs "זריזין מקדימין למצוות"?
– alicht
May 2 at 4:43
1
The view from the Alter Rebbe is dealing with the subject of whether the mitzvah falls on the individual or the tzibbur. This is found in Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Orach Chaim vol. 3, 489:1. He says it is better 'to begin with' to follow according to the individual fulfilling. The "תמימות תהיינה" is in regard to the count of the weeks being more complete (the most full weeks) which would mean as soon as you have actual night, each day of sefirah. Delaying for later would be a 'less full' counting.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 13:44
@YaacovDeane ah gotcha- think I should edit it out of the question?
– alicht
May 2 at 13:59
1
What you have stated in the question is accurate. But when it discusses 'ma'ariv', it isn't talking about praying with the minyan. It means the time from 3 medium stars. The sooner the better from that point is what is 'more full' counting. In fact, like Mishnah Berurah points out (and likely Aruch HaShulchan), many, if not majority hold the obligation is only on the individual, not communal. That's why M.B. also discusses hearing the blessing from the Shatz, but counting yourself. See Be'er Heitev in your link.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 14:16
1
1
Thinking out loud: maybe we can also suggest this is a case of "תדיר ושאינו תדיר תדיר קודם" vs "זריזין מקדימין למצוות"?
– alicht
May 2 at 4:43
Thinking out loud: maybe we can also suggest this is a case of "תדיר ושאינו תדיר תדיר קודם" vs "זריזין מקדימין למצוות"?
– alicht
May 2 at 4:43
1
1
The view from the Alter Rebbe is dealing with the subject of whether the mitzvah falls on the individual or the tzibbur. This is found in Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Orach Chaim vol. 3, 489:1. He says it is better 'to begin with' to follow according to the individual fulfilling. The "תמימות תהיינה" is in regard to the count of the weeks being more complete (the most full weeks) which would mean as soon as you have actual night, each day of sefirah. Delaying for later would be a 'less full' counting.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 13:44
The view from the Alter Rebbe is dealing with the subject of whether the mitzvah falls on the individual or the tzibbur. This is found in Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Orach Chaim vol. 3, 489:1. He says it is better 'to begin with' to follow according to the individual fulfilling. The "תמימות תהיינה" is in regard to the count of the weeks being more complete (the most full weeks) which would mean as soon as you have actual night, each day of sefirah. Delaying for later would be a 'less full' counting.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 13:44
@YaacovDeane ah gotcha- think I should edit it out of the question?
– alicht
May 2 at 13:59
@YaacovDeane ah gotcha- think I should edit it out of the question?
– alicht
May 2 at 13:59
1
1
What you have stated in the question is accurate. But when it discusses 'ma'ariv', it isn't talking about praying with the minyan. It means the time from 3 medium stars. The sooner the better from that point is what is 'more full' counting. In fact, like Mishnah Berurah points out (and likely Aruch HaShulchan), many, if not majority hold the obligation is only on the individual, not communal. That's why M.B. also discusses hearing the blessing from the Shatz, but counting yourself. See Be'er Heitev in your link.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 14:16
What you have stated in the question is accurate. But when it discusses 'ma'ariv', it isn't talking about praying with the minyan. It means the time from 3 medium stars. The sooner the better from that point is what is 'more full' counting. In fact, like Mishnah Berurah points out (and likely Aruch HaShulchan), many, if not majority hold the obligation is only on the individual, not communal. That's why M.B. also discusses hearing the blessing from the Shatz, but counting yourself. See Be'er Heitev in your link.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 14:16
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Here are some notes (actually, a slightly edited email response) I just wrote up on the topic before this question was asked here, but I'll try to organize it later. All halachic sources are found Orach Chaim 489:
I wasn't sure if that Halachic rule would overpower the Chiyuv to
count immediately because of concerns for "Mitzvah Haba'ah
Leyadcha...", "Zerizin Makdimin" and "Temimos" etc.
It turns out that the Biur Halacha (s.v. Achar) quotes the Chok
Ya'akov who applies the rule of Tadir here, and says that one should
wait for Ma'ariv before counting. The Piskei Teshuvos (Note Gimmel)
takes this further and adds that you should count it Betzibbur, which
would be another reason to wait for Ma'ariv later to count.
However, the Magen Avraham (Note Zayin) says that one may count by
themselves even before Ma'ariv, and he does not seem to qualify it as
Bedi'eved. He, nor any of the commentaries I saw, object on the basis
of Tadir. The Aruch Hashulchan (Se'if Yud) cites this Lehalacha and
says that it is the "Derech Ha'olam" to count after Ma'ariv, but that
it is fine to count before as well. The same Bi'ur Halacha quoted
earlier cites the Mor Uketzi'a who supports this as well.
If we accept that there is a Chiyuv to count Betzibbur and/or follow
those Poskim who apply "Tadir...", you could make the argument that
one does not have to count right away. However, if we reject that
view, and follow the Magen Avraham/Aruch Hashulchan, it is hard to see
why one should delay counting the Omer until after Ma'ariv.
(I would note that the question of Tadir is only applicable when both
are in front of you and can be done now. If I am waiting for a minyan
to daven later, and have a shomer/alarm reminding me of it, but there
is a Chiyuv Sefirah now, I'm not sure anyone would say that Tadir
applies. Even the Bi'ur Halacha and Chok Ya'akov only say it where the
person is in shul davening Ma'ariv. Perhaps this is why the Piskei
Teshuvos is so strong about the necessity to count Betzibbur...?)
The Igros Moshe you cited (OC 4:99) does indeed side with the
opinion that Tadir applies here, but that still may only be
preferable when one has a Minyan Kavua and isn't concerned that they
will miss Ma'ariv (from a Halachic standpoint). Additionally, Rav
Moshe opposes all of the poskim I noted above, which are mainstream
and accepted, in addition to the Taz and the Bi'ur Halacha that he
himself points out seem to oppose him.
Practically speaking, I discussed this with a Posek, who indicated that common Psak was in fact to count before Ma'ariv in such a
situation. I also heard in the name of Rav Schachter that Tadir
applies only when both Mitzvos can be done optimally at that point in
time, and that he applied it to this situation to say that one should
count first and daven later, since it is not optimal to daven Ma'ariv now.
On the other hand, Rav Moshe is a pretty reliable source himself...
answered May 2 at 13:57
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
14.8k131125
1
Mishnah Berurah 25:7 וכן בתדיר ושאינו תדיר דקי"ל דתדיר קודם אם אין התדיר לפנינו א"צ להמתין
– Alex
May 2 at 15:03
Thanks for the source. It may not apply fully here if technically one can daven and is choosing to wait.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 15:23
If you had the right to wait without sefirah it would be quite a big chiddush to say that you suddenly become obligated to do something now simply because you can do something else now.
– Alex
May 2 at 15:27
add a comment |
Aruch Hashulchan O.C. 489:10
דרך העולם לספור אחר תפילת ערבית אבל אין הספירה תלויה בזה דיכול לספור גם קודם ק"ש ותפלה אם הוא לילה
The way of the world is to count after the evening prayer, but the counting is not dependent on this – one is allowed to count even before Shema and prayer, if it is night.
(See also Mishnah Berurah 489:18.)
This makes it sound like there is no inherent reason to juxtapose Sefirah to Ma'ariv, nor do they mention any other halachic values (e.g. minyan) that would necessitate waiting.
Mishnah Berurah 489:2
קודם עלינו דכל מה דאפשר לאקדומי מקדמינן כדי שיתקיים יותר מה שכתוב תמימות תהיינה
And before Aleinu, for all that one can make it earlier we make it earlier, in order to better fulfill that which is written "they should be complete".
This makes it sound like there is an inherent reason to count as early as possible.
answered May 2 at 5:34
AlexAlex
25.1k159138
Interesting- so your answer seems to suggest that not only is counting earlier b'ychidus allowed, it may even be preferable to do so rather than count later with a minyan
– alicht
May 2 at 6:39
Although one should try count sefira asap, Maariv comes first because of Todir.
– chortkov2
May 2 at 9:09
2
The question isn't about Maariv per se but any Minyan; i recommend removing the AHSh since no one claimed maariv might be relevant. Even the MB didn't recommend everyone say to themselves after silent Amida, which is the first opportunity.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:52
1
@Heshy sure! My point is more these sources aren't a good answer. The OP already sourced the fact that earlier is a value. The question is which value wins out.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:54
1
See the first biur halacha in the siman.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 14:45
|
show 5 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Here are some notes (actually, a slightly edited email response) I just wrote up on the topic before this question was asked here, but I'll try to organize it later. All halachic sources are found Orach Chaim 489:
I wasn't sure if that Halachic rule would overpower the Chiyuv to
count immediately because of concerns for "Mitzvah Haba'ah
Leyadcha...", "Zerizin Makdimin" and "Temimos" etc.
It turns out that the Biur Halacha (s.v. Achar) quotes the Chok
Ya'akov who applies the rule of Tadir here, and says that one should
wait for Ma'ariv before counting. The Piskei Teshuvos (Note Gimmel)
takes this further and adds that you should count it Betzibbur, which
would be another reason to wait for Ma'ariv later to count.
However, the Magen Avraham (Note Zayin) says that one may count by
themselves even before Ma'ariv, and he does not seem to qualify it as
Bedi'eved. He, nor any of the commentaries I saw, object on the basis
of Tadir. The Aruch Hashulchan (Se'if Yud) cites this Lehalacha and
says that it is the "Derech Ha'olam" to count after Ma'ariv, but that
it is fine to count before as well. The same Bi'ur Halacha quoted
earlier cites the Mor Uketzi'a who supports this as well.
If we accept that there is a Chiyuv to count Betzibbur and/or follow
those Poskim who apply "Tadir...", you could make the argument that
one does not have to count right away. However, if we reject that
view, and follow the Magen Avraham/Aruch Hashulchan, it is hard to see
why one should delay counting the Omer until after Ma'ariv.
(I would note that the question of Tadir is only applicable when both
are in front of you and can be done now. If I am waiting for a minyan
to daven later, and have a shomer/alarm reminding me of it, but there
is a Chiyuv Sefirah now, I'm not sure anyone would say that Tadir
applies. Even the Bi'ur Halacha and Chok Ya'akov only say it where the
person is in shul davening Ma'ariv. Perhaps this is why the Piskei
Teshuvos is so strong about the necessity to count Betzibbur...?)
The Igros Moshe you cited (OC 4:99) does indeed side with the
opinion that Tadir applies here, but that still may only be
preferable when one has a Minyan Kavua and isn't concerned that they
will miss Ma'ariv (from a Halachic standpoint). Additionally, Rav
Moshe opposes all of the poskim I noted above, which are mainstream
and accepted, in addition to the Taz and the Bi'ur Halacha that he
himself points out seem to oppose him.
Practically speaking, I discussed this with a Posek, who indicated that common Psak was in fact to count before Ma'ariv in such a
situation. I also heard in the name of Rav Schachter that Tadir
applies only when both Mitzvos can be done optimally at that point in
time, and that he applied it to this situation to say that one should
count first and daven later, since it is not optimal to daven Ma'ariv now.
On the other hand, Rav Moshe is a pretty reliable source himself...
answered May 2 at 13:57
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
14.8k131125
1
Mishnah Berurah 25:7 וכן בתדיר ושאינו תדיר דקי"ל דתדיר קודם אם אין התדיר לפנינו א"צ להמתין
– Alex
May 2 at 15:03
Thanks for the source. It may not apply fully here if technically one can daven and is choosing to wait.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 15:23
If you had the right to wait without sefirah it would be quite a big chiddush to say that you suddenly become obligated to do something now simply because you can do something else now.
– Alex
May 2 at 15:27
add a comment |
Here are some notes (actually, a slightly edited email response) I just wrote up on the topic before this question was asked here, but I'll try to organize it later. All halachic sources are found Orach Chaim 489:
I wasn't sure if that Halachic rule would overpower the Chiyuv to
count immediately because of concerns for "Mitzvah Haba'ah
Leyadcha...", "Zerizin Makdimin" and "Temimos" etc.
It turns out that the Biur Halacha (s.v. Achar) quotes the Chok
Ya'akov who applies the rule of Tadir here, and says that one should
wait for Ma'ariv before counting. The Piskei Teshuvos (Note Gimmel)
takes this further and adds that you should count it Betzibbur, which
would be another reason to wait for Ma'ariv later to count.
However, the Magen Avraham (Note Zayin) says that one may count by
themselves even before Ma'ariv, and he does not seem to qualify it as
Bedi'eved. He, nor any of the commentaries I saw, object on the basis
of Tadir. The Aruch Hashulchan (Se'if Yud) cites this Lehalacha and
says that it is the "Derech Ha'olam" to count after Ma'ariv, but that
it is fine to count before as well. The same Bi'ur Halacha quoted
earlier cites the Mor Uketzi'a who supports this as well.
If we accept that there is a Chiyuv to count Betzibbur and/or follow
those Poskim who apply "Tadir...", you could make the argument that
one does not have to count right away. However, if we reject that
view, and follow the Magen Avraham/Aruch Hashulchan, it is hard to see
why one should delay counting the Omer until after Ma'ariv.
(I would note that the question of Tadir is only applicable when both
are in front of you and can be done now. If I am waiting for a minyan
to daven later, and have a shomer/alarm reminding me of it, but there
is a Chiyuv Sefirah now, I'm not sure anyone would say that Tadir
applies. Even the Bi'ur Halacha and Chok Ya'akov only say it where the
person is in shul davening Ma'ariv. Perhaps this is why the Piskei
Teshuvos is so strong about the necessity to count Betzibbur...?)
The Igros Moshe you cited (OC 4:99) does indeed side with the
opinion that Tadir applies here, but that still may only be
preferable when one has a Minyan Kavua and isn't concerned that they
will miss Ma'ariv (from a Halachic standpoint). Additionally, Rav
Moshe opposes all of the poskim I noted above, which are mainstream
and accepted, in addition to the Taz and the Bi'ur Halacha that he
himself points out seem to oppose him.
Practically speaking, I discussed this with a Posek, who indicated that common Psak was in fact to count before Ma'ariv in such a
situation. I also heard in the name of Rav Schachter that Tadir
applies only when both Mitzvos can be done optimally at that point in
time, and that he applied it to this situation to say that one should
count first and daven later, since it is not optimal to daven Ma'ariv now.
On the other hand, Rav Moshe is a pretty reliable source himself...
answered May 2 at 13:57
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
14.8k131125
1
Mishnah Berurah 25:7 וכן בתדיר ושאינו תדיר דקי"ל דתדיר קודם אם אין התדיר לפנינו א"צ להמתין
– Alex
May 2 at 15:03
Thanks for the source. It may not apply fully here if technically one can daven and is choosing to wait.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 15:23
If you had the right to wait without sefirah it would be quite a big chiddush to say that you suddenly become obligated to do something now simply because you can do something else now.
– Alex
May 2 at 15:27
add a comment |
Here are some notes (actually, a slightly edited email response) I just wrote up on the topic before this question was asked here, but I'll try to organize it later. All halachic sources are found Orach Chaim 489:
I wasn't sure if that Halachic rule would overpower the Chiyuv to
count immediately because of concerns for "Mitzvah Haba'ah
Leyadcha...", "Zerizin Makdimin" and "Temimos" etc.
It turns out that the Biur Halacha (s.v. Achar) quotes the Chok
Ya'akov who applies the rule of Tadir here, and says that one should
wait for Ma'ariv before counting. The Piskei Teshuvos (Note Gimmel)
takes this further and adds that you should count it Betzibbur, which
would be another reason to wait for Ma'ariv later to count.
However, the Magen Avraham (Note Zayin) says that one may count by
themselves even before Ma'ariv, and he does not seem to qualify it as
Bedi'eved. He, nor any of the commentaries I saw, object on the basis
of Tadir. The Aruch Hashulchan (Se'if Yud) cites this Lehalacha and
says that it is the "Derech Ha'olam" to count after Ma'ariv, but that
it is fine to count before as well. The same Bi'ur Halacha quoted
earlier cites the Mor Uketzi'a who supports this as well.
If we accept that there is a Chiyuv to count Betzibbur and/or follow
those Poskim who apply "Tadir...", you could make the argument that
one does not have to count right away. However, if we reject that
view, and follow the Magen Avraham/Aruch Hashulchan, it is hard to see
why one should delay counting the Omer until after Ma'ariv.
(I would note that the question of Tadir is only applicable when both
are in front of you and can be done now. If I am waiting for a minyan
to daven later, and have a shomer/alarm reminding me of it, but there
is a Chiyuv Sefirah now, I'm not sure anyone would say that Tadir
applies. Even the Bi'ur Halacha and Chok Ya'akov only say it where the
person is in shul davening Ma'ariv. Perhaps this is why the Piskei
Teshuvos is so strong about the necessity to count Betzibbur...?)
The Igros Moshe you cited (OC 4:99) does indeed side with the
opinion that Tadir applies here, but that still may only be
preferable when one has a Minyan Kavua and isn't concerned that they
will miss Ma'ariv (from a Halachic standpoint). Additionally, Rav
Moshe opposes all of the poskim I noted above, which are mainstream
and accepted, in addition to the Taz and the Bi'ur Halacha that he
himself points out seem to oppose him.
Practically speaking, I discussed this with a Posek, who indicated that common Psak was in fact to count before Ma'ariv in such a
situation. I also heard in the name of Rav Schachter that Tadir
applies only when both Mitzvos can be done optimally at that point in
time, and that he applied it to this situation to say that one should
count first and daven later, since it is not optimal to daven Ma'ariv now.
On the other hand, Rav Moshe is a pretty reliable source himself...
answered May 2 at 13:57
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
14.8k131125
Here are some notes (actually, a slightly edited email response) I just wrote up on the topic before this question was asked here, but I'll try to organize it later. All halachic sources are found Orach Chaim 489:
I wasn't sure if that Halachic rule would overpower the Chiyuv to
count immediately because of concerns for "Mitzvah Haba'ah
Leyadcha...", "Zerizin Makdimin" and "Temimos" etc.
It turns out that the Biur Halacha (s.v. Achar) quotes the Chok
Ya'akov who applies the rule of Tadir here, and says that one should
wait for Ma'ariv before counting. The Piskei Teshuvos (Note Gimmel)
takes this further and adds that you should count it Betzibbur, which
would be another reason to wait for Ma'ariv later to count.
However, the Magen Avraham (Note Zayin) says that one may count by
themselves even before Ma'ariv, and he does not seem to qualify it as
Bedi'eved. He, nor any of the commentaries I saw, object on the basis
of Tadir. The Aruch Hashulchan (Se'if Yud) cites this Lehalacha and
says that it is the "Derech Ha'olam" to count after Ma'ariv, but that
it is fine to count before as well. The same Bi'ur Halacha quoted
earlier cites the Mor Uketzi'a who supports this as well.
If we accept that there is a Chiyuv to count Betzibbur and/or follow
those Poskim who apply "Tadir...", you could make the argument that
one does not have to count right away. However, if we reject that
view, and follow the Magen Avraham/Aruch Hashulchan, it is hard to see
why one should delay counting the Omer until after Ma'ariv.
(I would note that the question of Tadir is only applicable when both
are in front of you and can be done now. If I am waiting for a minyan
to daven later, and have a shomer/alarm reminding me of it, but there
is a Chiyuv Sefirah now, I'm not sure anyone would say that Tadir
applies. Even the Bi'ur Halacha and Chok Ya'akov only say it where the
person is in shul davening Ma'ariv. Perhaps this is why the Piskei
Teshuvos is so strong about the necessity to count Betzibbur...?)
The Igros Moshe you cited (OC 4:99) does indeed side with the
opinion that Tadir applies here, but that still may only be
preferable when one has a Minyan Kavua and isn't concerned that they
will miss Ma'ariv (from a Halachic standpoint). Additionally, Rav
Moshe opposes all of the poskim I noted above, which are mainstream
and accepted, in addition to the Taz and the Bi'ur Halacha that he
himself points out seem to oppose him.
Practically speaking, I discussed this with a Posek, who indicated that common Psak was in fact to count before Ma'ariv in such a
situation. I also heard in the name of Rav Schachter that Tadir
applies only when both Mitzvos can be done optimally at that point in
time, and that he applied it to this situation to say that one should
count first and daven later, since it is not optimal to daven Ma'ariv now.
On the other hand, Rav Moshe is a pretty reliable source himself...
answered May 2 at 13:57
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
14.8k131125
answered May 2 at 13:57
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
14.8k131125
answered May 2 at 13:57
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
14.8k131125
answered May 2 at 13:57
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
14.8k131125
14.8k131125
1
Mishnah Berurah 25:7 וכן בתדיר ושאינו תדיר דקי"ל דתדיר קודם אם אין התדיר לפנינו א"צ להמתין
– Alex
May 2 at 15:03
Thanks for the source. It may not apply fully here if technically one can daven and is choosing to wait.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 15:23
If you had the right to wait without sefirah it would be quite a big chiddush to say that you suddenly become obligated to do something now simply because you can do something else now.
– Alex
May 2 at 15:27
add a comment |
1
Mishnah Berurah 25:7 וכן בתדיר ושאינו תדיר דקי"ל דתדיר קודם אם אין התדיר לפנינו א"צ להמתין
– Alex
May 2 at 15:03
Thanks for the source. It may not apply fully here if technically one can daven and is choosing to wait.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 15:23
If you had the right to wait without sefirah it would be quite a big chiddush to say that you suddenly become obligated to do something now simply because you can do something else now.
– Alex
May 2 at 15:27
1
1
Mishnah Berurah 25:7 וכן בתדיר ושאינו תדיר דקי"ל דתדיר קודם אם אין התדיר לפנינו א"צ להמתין
– Alex
May 2 at 15:03
Mishnah Berurah 25:7 וכן בתדיר ושאינו תדיר דקי"ל דתדיר קודם אם אין התדיר לפנינו א"צ להמתין
– Alex
May 2 at 15:03
Thanks for the source. It may not apply fully here if technically one can daven and is choosing to wait.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 15:23
Thanks for the source. It may not apply fully here if technically one can daven and is choosing to wait.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 15:23
If you had the right to wait without sefirah it would be quite a big chiddush to say that you suddenly become obligated to do something now simply because you can do something else now.
– Alex
May 2 at 15:27
If you had the right to wait without sefirah it would be quite a big chiddush to say that you suddenly become obligated to do something now simply because you can do something else now.
– Alex
May 2 at 15:27
add a comment |
Aruch Hashulchan O.C. 489:10
דרך העולם לספור אחר תפילת ערבית אבל אין הספירה תלויה בזה דיכול לספור גם קודם ק"ש ותפלה אם הוא לילה
The way of the world is to count after the evening prayer, but the counting is not dependent on this – one is allowed to count even before Shema and prayer, if it is night.
(See also Mishnah Berurah 489:18.)
This makes it sound like there is no inherent reason to juxtapose Sefirah to Ma'ariv, nor do they mention any other halachic values (e.g. minyan) that would necessitate waiting.
Mishnah Berurah 489:2
קודם עלינו דכל מה דאפשר לאקדומי מקדמינן כדי שיתקיים יותר מה שכתוב תמימות תהיינה
And before Aleinu, for all that one can make it earlier we make it earlier, in order to better fulfill that which is written "they should be complete".
This makes it sound like there is an inherent reason to count as early as possible.
answered May 2 at 5:34
AlexAlex
25.1k159138
Interesting- so your answer seems to suggest that not only is counting earlier b'ychidus allowed, it may even be preferable to do so rather than count later with a minyan
– alicht
May 2 at 6:39
Although one should try count sefira asap, Maariv comes first because of Todir.
– chortkov2
May 2 at 9:09
2
The question isn't about Maariv per se but any Minyan; i recommend removing the AHSh since no one claimed maariv might be relevant. Even the MB didn't recommend everyone say to themselves after silent Amida, which is the first opportunity.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:52
1
@Heshy sure! My point is more these sources aren't a good answer. The OP already sourced the fact that earlier is a value. The question is which value wins out.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:54
1
See the first biur halacha in the siman.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 14:45
|
show 5 more comments
Aruch Hashulchan O.C. 489:10
דרך העולם לספור אחר תפילת ערבית אבל אין הספירה תלויה בזה דיכול לספור גם קודם ק"ש ותפלה אם הוא לילה
The way of the world is to count after the evening prayer, but the counting is not dependent on this – one is allowed to count even before Shema and prayer, if it is night.
(See also Mishnah Berurah 489:18.)
This makes it sound like there is no inherent reason to juxtapose Sefirah to Ma'ariv, nor do they mention any other halachic values (e.g. minyan) that would necessitate waiting.
Mishnah Berurah 489:2
קודם עלינו דכל מה דאפשר לאקדומי מקדמינן כדי שיתקיים יותר מה שכתוב תמימות תהיינה
And before Aleinu, for all that one can make it earlier we make it earlier, in order to better fulfill that which is written "they should be complete".
This makes it sound like there is an inherent reason to count as early as possible.
answered May 2 at 5:34
AlexAlex
25.1k159138
Interesting- so your answer seems to suggest that not only is counting earlier b'ychidus allowed, it may even be preferable to do so rather than count later with a minyan
– alicht
May 2 at 6:39
Although one should try count sefira asap, Maariv comes first because of Todir.
– chortkov2
May 2 at 9:09
2
The question isn't about Maariv per se but any Minyan; i recommend removing the AHSh since no one claimed maariv might be relevant. Even the MB didn't recommend everyone say to themselves after silent Amida, which is the first opportunity.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:52
1
@Heshy sure! My point is more these sources aren't a good answer. The OP already sourced the fact that earlier is a value. The question is which value wins out.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:54
1
See the first biur halacha in the siman.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 14:45
|
show 5 more comments
Aruch Hashulchan O.C. 489:10
דרך העולם לספור אחר תפילת ערבית אבל אין הספירה תלויה בזה דיכול לספור גם קודם ק"ש ותפלה אם הוא לילה
The way of the world is to count after the evening prayer, but the counting is not dependent on this – one is allowed to count even before Shema and prayer, if it is night.
(See also Mishnah Berurah 489:18.)
This makes it sound like there is no inherent reason to juxtapose Sefirah to Ma'ariv, nor do they mention any other halachic values (e.g. minyan) that would necessitate waiting.
Mishnah Berurah 489:2
קודם עלינו דכל מה דאפשר לאקדומי מקדמינן כדי שיתקיים יותר מה שכתוב תמימות תהיינה
And before Aleinu, for all that one can make it earlier we make it earlier, in order to better fulfill that which is written "they should be complete".
This makes it sound like there is an inherent reason to count as early as possible.
answered May 2 at 5:34
AlexAlex
25.1k159138
Aruch Hashulchan O.C. 489:10
דרך העולם לספור אחר תפילת ערבית אבל אין הספירה תלויה בזה דיכול לספור גם קודם ק"ש ותפלה אם הוא לילה
The way of the world is to count after the evening prayer, but the counting is not dependent on this – one is allowed to count even before Shema and prayer, if it is night.
(See also Mishnah Berurah 489:18.)
This makes it sound like there is no inherent reason to juxtapose Sefirah to Ma'ariv, nor do they mention any other halachic values (e.g. minyan) that would necessitate waiting.
Mishnah Berurah 489:2
קודם עלינו דכל מה דאפשר לאקדומי מקדמינן כדי שיתקיים יותר מה שכתוב תמימות תהיינה
And before Aleinu, for all that one can make it earlier we make it earlier, in order to better fulfill that which is written "they should be complete".
This makes it sound like there is an inherent reason to count as early as possible.
answered May 2 at 5:34
AlexAlex
25.1k159138
edited May 2 at 14:36
answered May 2 at 5:34
AlexAlex
25.1k159138
answered May 2 at 5:34
AlexAlex
25.1k159138
answered May 2 at 5:34
AlexAlex
25.1k159138
25.1k159138
Interesting- so your answer seems to suggest that not only is counting earlier b'ychidus allowed, it may even be preferable to do so rather than count later with a minyan
– alicht
May 2 at 6:39
Although one should try count sefira asap, Maariv comes first because of Todir.
– chortkov2
May 2 at 9:09
2
The question isn't about Maariv per se but any Minyan; i recommend removing the AHSh since no one claimed maariv might be relevant. Even the MB didn't recommend everyone say to themselves after silent Amida, which is the first opportunity.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:52
1
@Heshy sure! My point is more these sources aren't a good answer. The OP already sourced the fact that earlier is a value. The question is which value wins out.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:54
1
See the first biur halacha in the siman.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 14:45
|
show 5 more comments
Interesting- so your answer seems to suggest that not only is counting earlier b'ychidus allowed, it may even be preferable to do so rather than count later with a minyan
– alicht
May 2 at 6:39
Although one should try count sefira asap, Maariv comes first because of Todir.
– chortkov2
May 2 at 9:09
2
The question isn't about Maariv per se but any Minyan; i recommend removing the AHSh since no one claimed maariv might be relevant. Even the MB didn't recommend everyone say to themselves after silent Amida, which is the first opportunity.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:52
1
@Heshy sure! My point is more these sources aren't a good answer. The OP already sourced the fact that earlier is a value. The question is which value wins out.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:54
1
See the first biur halacha in the siman.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 14:45
Interesting- so your answer seems to suggest that not only is counting earlier b'ychidus allowed, it may even be preferable to do so rather than count later with a minyan
– alicht
May 2 at 6:39
Interesting- so your answer seems to suggest that not only is counting earlier b'ychidus allowed, it may even be preferable to do so rather than count later with a minyan
– alicht
May 2 at 6:39
Although one should try count sefira asap, Maariv comes first because of Todir.
– chortkov2
May 2 at 9:09
Although one should try count sefira asap, Maariv comes first because of Todir.
– chortkov2
May 2 at 9:09
2
2
The question isn't about Maariv per se but any Minyan; i recommend removing the AHSh since no one claimed maariv might be relevant. Even the MB didn't recommend everyone say to themselves after silent Amida, which is the first opportunity.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:52
The question isn't about Maariv per se but any Minyan; i recommend removing the AHSh since no one claimed maariv might be relevant. Even the MB didn't recommend everyone say to themselves after silent Amida, which is the first opportunity.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:52
1
1
@Heshy sure! My point is more these sources aren't a good answer. The OP already sourced the fact that earlier is a value. The question is which value wins out.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:54
@Heshy sure! My point is more these sources aren't a good answer. The OP already sourced the fact that earlier is a value. The question is which value wins out.
– Double AA♦
May 2 at 11:54
1
1
See the first biur halacha in the siman.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 14:45
See the first biur halacha in the siman.
– רבות מחשבות
May 2 at 14:45
|
show 5 more comments
1
Thinking out loud: maybe we can also suggest this is a case of "תדיר ושאינו תדיר תדיר קודם" vs "זריזין מקדימין למצוות"?
– alicht
May 2 at 4:43
1
The view from the Alter Rebbe is dealing with the subject of whether the mitzvah falls on the individual or the tzibbur. This is found in Shulchan Aruch HaRav, Orach Chaim vol. 3, 489:1. He says it is better 'to begin with' to follow according to the individual fulfilling. The "תמימות תהיינה" is in regard to the count of the weeks being more complete (the most full weeks) which would mean as soon as you have actual night, each day of sefirah. Delaying for later would be a 'less full' counting.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 13:44
@YaacovDeane ah gotcha- think I should edit it out of the question?
– alicht
May 2 at 13:59
1
What you have stated in the question is accurate. But when it discusses 'ma'ariv', it isn't talking about praying with the minyan. It means the time from 3 medium stars. The sooner the better from that point is what is 'more full' counting. In fact, like Mishnah Berurah points out (and likely Aruch HaShulchan), many, if not majority hold the obligation is only on the individual, not communal. That's why M.B. also discusses hearing the blessing from the Shatz, but counting yourself. See Be'er Heitev in your link.
– Yaacov Deane
May 2 at 14:16