Didn't the lottery of Achan make G-d an informant?(How) was Joshua allowed to trick Achan?How to make amends for my previous mistakes?How could R' Yochanan make a statement about the Babylonian Talmud?Did Yehoshua Give Achan the Wrong Punishment?Why didn't Joshua appoint a leader after him?Why didn't Joshua take Prisoners When conquering Israel?Why didn't the tribes of Re'uven and Gad and 1/2 Menashe take up Moshe's suggestion?Why isn't the Book of Joshua part of the Torah?Why didn't King Shlomo get lashes for marrying more than 18 wives?Who is ההוא דהוה in the Gemara?How does frequency of a Sanhedrin killing make sense in light of the concept of “Kippah”?
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Didn't the lottery of Achan make G-d an informant?
(How) was Joshua allowed to trick Achan?How to make amends for my previous mistakes?How could R' Yochanan make a statement about the Babylonian Talmud?Did Yehoshua Give Achan the Wrong Punishment?Why didn't Joshua appoint a leader after him?Why didn't Joshua take Prisoners When conquering Israel?Why didn't the tribes of Re'uven and Gad and 1/2 Menashe take up Moshe's suggestion?Why isn't the Book of Joshua part of the Torah?Why didn't King Shlomo get lashes for marrying more than 18 wives?Who is ההוא דהוה in the Gemara?How does frequency of a Sanhedrin killing make sense in light of the concept of “Kippah”?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
In Sanhedrin 43b God says he will not tell Yehoshua who took of the cherem of Yericho because God is not an informer
אמר לפניו רבש"ע מי חטא אמר ליה וכי דילטור אני
Joshua said to G-d: Master of the Universe, who is the one who has sinned? God said to him: Am I an informer [deilator]?
So in order to ascertain who the sinner is Yehoshua makes use of a lottery. However it would seem to me that this does not solve the God-as-informer problem. If the veracity of the lots is assumed because the outcome is guided by God then God is essentially still an informant (albeit without explicitly 'saying' who did it). If the outcome is pure chance then Achan's retort is correct and the lots are random and have no true meaning.
How can we understand why the use of lots does not constitute God being an informant?
maseches-sanhedrin joshua--book-of cherem mesirah
edited Jun 5 at 14:14
Al Berko
7,7492631
asked Jun 5 at 2:18
postinganonymouslypostinganonymously
589213
add a comment |
In Sanhedrin 43b God says he will not tell Yehoshua who took of the cherem of Yericho because God is not an informer
אמר לפניו רבש"ע מי חטא אמר ליה וכי דילטור אני
Joshua said to G-d: Master of the Universe, who is the one who has sinned? God said to him: Am I an informer [deilator]?
So in order to ascertain who the sinner is Yehoshua makes use of a lottery. However it would seem to me that this does not solve the God-as-informer problem. If the veracity of the lots is assumed because the outcome is guided by God then God is essentially still an informant (albeit without explicitly 'saying' who did it). If the outcome is pure chance then Achan's retort is correct and the lots are random and have no true meaning.
How can we understand why the use of lots does not constitute God being an informant?
maseches-sanhedrin joshua--book-of cherem mesirah
edited Jun 5 at 14:14
Al Berko
7,7492631
asked Jun 5 at 2:18
postinganonymouslypostinganonymously
589213
2
The lots on Yonah's ship worked almost exactly the same way
– Josh K
Jun 5 at 2:37
1
Probably you base it on the Posuk (Mishle 17, 33): "בַּחֵיק יוּטַל אֶת־הַגּוֹרָל וּמֵיְהוָה כָּל־מִשְׁפָּטוֹ׃" Lots are cast into the lap; The decision depends on the LORD. Maybe you should include this in the question, and that will stress the point.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 14:23
@DoubleAA That's why I decided to retract my comment.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 16:16
add a comment |
In Sanhedrin 43b God says he will not tell Yehoshua who took of the cherem of Yericho because God is not an informer
אמר לפניו רבש"ע מי חטא אמר ליה וכי דילטור אני
Joshua said to G-d: Master of the Universe, who is the one who has sinned? God said to him: Am I an informer [deilator]?
So in order to ascertain who the sinner is Yehoshua makes use of a lottery. However it would seem to me that this does not solve the God-as-informer problem. If the veracity of the lots is assumed because the outcome is guided by God then God is essentially still an informant (albeit without explicitly 'saying' who did it). If the outcome is pure chance then Achan's retort is correct and the lots are random and have no true meaning.
How can we understand why the use of lots does not constitute God being an informant?
maseches-sanhedrin joshua--book-of cherem mesirah
edited Jun 5 at 14:14
Al Berko
7,7492631
asked Jun 5 at 2:18
postinganonymouslypostinganonymously
589213
In Sanhedrin 43b God says he will not tell Yehoshua who took of the cherem of Yericho because God is not an informer
אמר לפניו רבש"ע מי חטא אמר ליה וכי דילטור אני
Joshua said to G-d: Master of the Universe, who is the one who has sinned? God said to him: Am I an informer [deilator]?
So in order to ascertain who the sinner is Yehoshua makes use of a lottery. However it would seem to me that this does not solve the God-as-informer problem. If the veracity of the lots is assumed because the outcome is guided by God then God is essentially still an informant (albeit without explicitly 'saying' who did it). If the outcome is pure chance then Achan's retort is correct and the lots are random and have no true meaning.
How can we understand why the use of lots does not constitute God being an informant?
maseches-sanhedrin joshua--book-of cherem mesirah
maseches-sanhedrin joshua--book-of cherem mesirah
edited Jun 5 at 14:14
Al Berko
7,7492631
asked Jun 5 at 2:18
postinganonymouslypostinganonymously
589213
edited Jun 5 at 14:14
Al Berko
7,7492631
asked Jun 5 at 2:18
postinganonymouslypostinganonymously
589213
edited Jun 5 at 14:14
Al Berko
7,7492631
edited Jun 5 at 14:14
Al Berko
7,7492631
edited Jun 5 at 14:14
Al Berko
7,7492631
7,7492631
asked Jun 5 at 2:18
postinganonymouslypostinganonymously
589213
asked Jun 5 at 2:18
postinganonymouslypostinganonymously
589213
asked Jun 5 at 2:18
postinganonymouslypostinganonymously
589213
589213
2
The lots on Yonah's ship worked almost exactly the same way
– Josh K
Jun 5 at 2:37
1
Probably you base it on the Posuk (Mishle 17, 33): "בַּחֵיק יוּטַל אֶת־הַגּוֹרָל וּמֵיְהוָה כָּל־מִשְׁפָּטוֹ׃" Lots are cast into the lap; The decision depends on the LORD. Maybe you should include this in the question, and that will stress the point.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 14:23
@DoubleAA That's why I decided to retract my comment.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 16:16
add a comment |
2
The lots on Yonah's ship worked almost exactly the same way
– Josh K
Jun 5 at 2:37
1
Probably you base it on the Posuk (Mishle 17, 33): "בַּחֵיק יוּטַל אֶת־הַגּוֹרָל וּמֵיְהוָה כָּל־מִשְׁפָּטוֹ׃" Lots are cast into the lap; The decision depends on the LORD. Maybe you should include this in the question, and that will stress the point.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 14:23
@DoubleAA That's why I decided to retract my comment.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 16:16
2
2
The lots on Yonah's ship worked almost exactly the same way
– Josh K
Jun 5 at 2:37
The lots on Yonah's ship worked almost exactly the same way
– Josh K
Jun 5 at 2:37
1
1
Probably you base it on the Posuk (Mishle 17, 33): "בַּחֵיק יוּטַל אֶת־הַגּוֹרָל וּמֵיְהוָה כָּל־מִשְׁפָּטוֹ׃" Lots are cast into the lap; The decision depends on the LORD. Maybe you should include this in the question, and that will stress the point.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 14:23
Probably you base it on the Posuk (Mishle 17, 33): "בַּחֵיק יוּטַל אֶת־הַגּוֹרָל וּמֵיְהוָה כָּל־מִשְׁפָּטוֹ׃" Lots are cast into the lap; The decision depends on the LORD. Maybe you should include this in the question, and that will stress the point.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 14:23
@DoubleAA That's why I decided to retract my comment.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 16:16
@DoubleAA That's why I decided to retract my comment.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 16:16
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
This is an excellent question, and is asked in many places such as here, here, here, here, and many other places. By far the best set of answers are found in the second link above, from Daf-yomi.com, with my rough summary below:
א. דבר ה' ליהושע היה בגילוי נבואה, והיא מדרגה עליונה של דבקות בקדושה. רק על גילוי נבואה נאמר שאין בו פחיתות ערך של דילטורין. אבל באופנים אחרים – כשם שה' מַגְבִּיהִי לָשָׁבֶת (תהלים קיג, ה) כך הוא גם מַשְׁפִּילִי לִרְאוֹת (שם ו).
ב. אמרו במסכת סנהדרין דף מג ע"ב:
"אמר לפניו: רבונו של עולם, מי חטא? אמר ליה: וכי דילטור אני? לך הפל גורלות. הלך והפיל גורלות, ונפל הגורל על עכן, אמר לו: יהושע, בגורל אתה בא עלי?! אתה ואלעזר הכהן שני גדולי הדור אתם, אם אני מפיל עליכם גורל - על אחד מכם הוא נופל. אמר לו: בבקשה ממך... מיד: ויען עכן את יהושע ויאמר אמנה אנכי חטאתי לה' אלהי ישראל וכזאת וכזאת עשיתי".
כפי שטען עכן, גם בגורל אין בכדי להוכיח ולהצביע על החוטא. תועלת הגורל היתה בכך שהוא שגרם לעכן להודות בעצמו על חטאו.
ג. דילטור הוא ההולך רכיל, כפירוש רש"י, ודרך לשון הרע להאמר בלחש ככתוב בקהלת י, יא: אִם יִשֹּׁךְ הַנָּחָשׁ בְּלוֹא לָחַשׁ וְאֵין יִתְרוֹן לְבַעַל הַלָּשׁוֹן. וכוונת ה' היתה שאין מן הראוי שיאשים יהושע את עכן בטענה כי מה' נלחש לו מאחורי גבו. ואילו עדות הגורל היא בפני עיני הכל.
Answer 1 - there is a difference between being a slanderer through Nevuah, a very holy method of communication between man and G-d. Only through this method would there be an issue of telling Lashon Hara, but not through a more natural method of communicating, such as a lottery.
Answer 2 - Indeed, Achan is correct in noting that a lottery does not conclusively prove anything. However, the purpose of the lottery was to put him in the spotlight and cause him to admit. (See here as well.) Indeed, Yehoshua even asks him to admit, which is emphasized by the very Gemara you are asking about.
Answer 3 - We see indications from many places that it is inappropriate to convict people from informers, who secretly tell Lashon Hara about people behind their backs. Therefore, here, Hashem desired that the lottery be done in front of the entire nation, to avoid being a private informer (this may work well with the language of the Gemara "וכי דילטור אני לך"?)
answered Jun 5 at 12:46
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
15.4k131126
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
This is an excellent question, and is asked in many places such as here, here, here, here, and many other places. By far the best set of answers are found in the second link above, from Daf-yomi.com, with my rough summary below:
א. דבר ה' ליהושע היה בגילוי נבואה, והיא מדרגה עליונה של דבקות בקדושה. רק על גילוי נבואה נאמר שאין בו פחיתות ערך של דילטורין. אבל באופנים אחרים – כשם שה' מַגְבִּיהִי לָשָׁבֶת (תהלים קיג, ה) כך הוא גם מַשְׁפִּילִי לִרְאוֹת (שם ו).
ב. אמרו במסכת סנהדרין דף מג ע"ב:
"אמר לפניו: רבונו של עולם, מי חטא? אמר ליה: וכי דילטור אני? לך הפל גורלות. הלך והפיל גורלות, ונפל הגורל על עכן, אמר לו: יהושע, בגורל אתה בא עלי?! אתה ואלעזר הכהן שני גדולי הדור אתם, אם אני מפיל עליכם גורל - על אחד מכם הוא נופל. אמר לו: בבקשה ממך... מיד: ויען עכן את יהושע ויאמר אמנה אנכי חטאתי לה' אלהי ישראל וכזאת וכזאת עשיתי".
כפי שטען עכן, גם בגורל אין בכדי להוכיח ולהצביע על החוטא. תועלת הגורל היתה בכך שהוא שגרם לעכן להודות בעצמו על חטאו.
ג. דילטור הוא ההולך רכיל, כפירוש רש"י, ודרך לשון הרע להאמר בלחש ככתוב בקהלת י, יא: אִם יִשֹּׁךְ הַנָּחָשׁ בְּלוֹא לָחַשׁ וְאֵין יִתְרוֹן לְבַעַל הַלָּשׁוֹן. וכוונת ה' היתה שאין מן הראוי שיאשים יהושע את עכן בטענה כי מה' נלחש לו מאחורי גבו. ואילו עדות הגורל היא בפני עיני הכל.
Answer 1 - there is a difference between being a slanderer through Nevuah, a very holy method of communication between man and G-d. Only through this method would there be an issue of telling Lashon Hara, but not through a more natural method of communicating, such as a lottery.
Answer 2 - Indeed, Achan is correct in noting that a lottery does not conclusively prove anything. However, the purpose of the lottery was to put him in the spotlight and cause him to admit. (See here as well.) Indeed, Yehoshua even asks him to admit, which is emphasized by the very Gemara you are asking about.
Answer 3 - We see indications from many places that it is inappropriate to convict people from informers, who secretly tell Lashon Hara about people behind their backs. Therefore, here, Hashem desired that the lottery be done in front of the entire nation, to avoid being a private informer (this may work well with the language of the Gemara "וכי דילטור אני לך"?)
answered Jun 5 at 12:46
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
15.4k131126
add a comment |
This is an excellent question, and is asked in many places such as here, here, here, here, and many other places. By far the best set of answers are found in the second link above, from Daf-yomi.com, with my rough summary below:
א. דבר ה' ליהושע היה בגילוי נבואה, והיא מדרגה עליונה של דבקות בקדושה. רק על גילוי נבואה נאמר שאין בו פחיתות ערך של דילטורין. אבל באופנים אחרים – כשם שה' מַגְבִּיהִי לָשָׁבֶת (תהלים קיג, ה) כך הוא גם מַשְׁפִּילִי לִרְאוֹת (שם ו).
ב. אמרו במסכת סנהדרין דף מג ע"ב:
"אמר לפניו: רבונו של עולם, מי חטא? אמר ליה: וכי דילטור אני? לך הפל גורלות. הלך והפיל גורלות, ונפל הגורל על עכן, אמר לו: יהושע, בגורל אתה בא עלי?! אתה ואלעזר הכהן שני גדולי הדור אתם, אם אני מפיל עליכם גורל - על אחד מכם הוא נופל. אמר לו: בבקשה ממך... מיד: ויען עכן את יהושע ויאמר אמנה אנכי חטאתי לה' אלהי ישראל וכזאת וכזאת עשיתי".
כפי שטען עכן, גם בגורל אין בכדי להוכיח ולהצביע על החוטא. תועלת הגורל היתה בכך שהוא שגרם לעכן להודות בעצמו על חטאו.
ג. דילטור הוא ההולך רכיל, כפירוש רש"י, ודרך לשון הרע להאמר בלחש ככתוב בקהלת י, יא: אִם יִשֹּׁךְ הַנָּחָשׁ בְּלוֹא לָחַשׁ וְאֵין יִתְרוֹן לְבַעַל הַלָּשׁוֹן. וכוונת ה' היתה שאין מן הראוי שיאשים יהושע את עכן בטענה כי מה' נלחש לו מאחורי גבו. ואילו עדות הגורל היא בפני עיני הכל.
Answer 1 - there is a difference between being a slanderer through Nevuah, a very holy method of communication between man and G-d. Only through this method would there be an issue of telling Lashon Hara, but not through a more natural method of communicating, such as a lottery.
Answer 2 - Indeed, Achan is correct in noting that a lottery does not conclusively prove anything. However, the purpose of the lottery was to put him in the spotlight and cause him to admit. (See here as well.) Indeed, Yehoshua even asks him to admit, which is emphasized by the very Gemara you are asking about.
Answer 3 - We see indications from many places that it is inappropriate to convict people from informers, who secretly tell Lashon Hara about people behind their backs. Therefore, here, Hashem desired that the lottery be done in front of the entire nation, to avoid being a private informer (this may work well with the language of the Gemara "וכי דילטור אני לך"?)
answered Jun 5 at 12:46
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
15.4k131126
add a comment |
This is an excellent question, and is asked in many places such as here, here, here, here, and many other places. By far the best set of answers are found in the second link above, from Daf-yomi.com, with my rough summary below:
א. דבר ה' ליהושע היה בגילוי נבואה, והיא מדרגה עליונה של דבקות בקדושה. רק על גילוי נבואה נאמר שאין בו פחיתות ערך של דילטורין. אבל באופנים אחרים – כשם שה' מַגְבִּיהִי לָשָׁבֶת (תהלים קיג, ה) כך הוא גם מַשְׁפִּילִי לִרְאוֹת (שם ו).
ב. אמרו במסכת סנהדרין דף מג ע"ב:
"אמר לפניו: רבונו של עולם, מי חטא? אמר ליה: וכי דילטור אני? לך הפל גורלות. הלך והפיל גורלות, ונפל הגורל על עכן, אמר לו: יהושע, בגורל אתה בא עלי?! אתה ואלעזר הכהן שני גדולי הדור אתם, אם אני מפיל עליכם גורל - על אחד מכם הוא נופל. אמר לו: בבקשה ממך... מיד: ויען עכן את יהושע ויאמר אמנה אנכי חטאתי לה' אלהי ישראל וכזאת וכזאת עשיתי".
כפי שטען עכן, גם בגורל אין בכדי להוכיח ולהצביע על החוטא. תועלת הגורל היתה בכך שהוא שגרם לעכן להודות בעצמו על חטאו.
ג. דילטור הוא ההולך רכיל, כפירוש רש"י, ודרך לשון הרע להאמר בלחש ככתוב בקהלת י, יא: אִם יִשֹּׁךְ הַנָּחָשׁ בְּלוֹא לָחַשׁ וְאֵין יִתְרוֹן לְבַעַל הַלָּשׁוֹן. וכוונת ה' היתה שאין מן הראוי שיאשים יהושע את עכן בטענה כי מה' נלחש לו מאחורי גבו. ואילו עדות הגורל היא בפני עיני הכל.
Answer 1 - there is a difference between being a slanderer through Nevuah, a very holy method of communication between man and G-d. Only through this method would there be an issue of telling Lashon Hara, but not through a more natural method of communicating, such as a lottery.
Answer 2 - Indeed, Achan is correct in noting that a lottery does not conclusively prove anything. However, the purpose of the lottery was to put him in the spotlight and cause him to admit. (See here as well.) Indeed, Yehoshua even asks him to admit, which is emphasized by the very Gemara you are asking about.
Answer 3 - We see indications from many places that it is inappropriate to convict people from informers, who secretly tell Lashon Hara about people behind their backs. Therefore, here, Hashem desired that the lottery be done in front of the entire nation, to avoid being a private informer (this may work well with the language of the Gemara "וכי דילטור אני לך"?)
answered Jun 5 at 12:46
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
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This is an excellent question, and is asked in many places such as here, here, here, here, and many other places. By far the best set of answers are found in the second link above, from Daf-yomi.com, with my rough summary below:
א. דבר ה' ליהושע היה בגילוי נבואה, והיא מדרגה עליונה של דבקות בקדושה. רק על גילוי נבואה נאמר שאין בו פחיתות ערך של דילטורין. אבל באופנים אחרים – כשם שה' מַגְבִּיהִי לָשָׁבֶת (תהלים קיג, ה) כך הוא גם מַשְׁפִּילִי לִרְאוֹת (שם ו).
ב. אמרו במסכת סנהדרין דף מג ע"ב:
"אמר לפניו: רבונו של עולם, מי חטא? אמר ליה: וכי דילטור אני? לך הפל גורלות. הלך והפיל גורלות, ונפל הגורל על עכן, אמר לו: יהושע, בגורל אתה בא עלי?! אתה ואלעזר הכהן שני גדולי הדור אתם, אם אני מפיל עליכם גורל - על אחד מכם הוא נופל. אמר לו: בבקשה ממך... מיד: ויען עכן את יהושע ויאמר אמנה אנכי חטאתי לה' אלהי ישראל וכזאת וכזאת עשיתי".
כפי שטען עכן, גם בגורל אין בכדי להוכיח ולהצביע על החוטא. תועלת הגורל היתה בכך שהוא שגרם לעכן להודות בעצמו על חטאו.
ג. דילטור הוא ההולך רכיל, כפירוש רש"י, ודרך לשון הרע להאמר בלחש ככתוב בקהלת י, יא: אִם יִשֹּׁךְ הַנָּחָשׁ בְּלוֹא לָחַשׁ וְאֵין יִתְרוֹן לְבַעַל הַלָּשׁוֹן. וכוונת ה' היתה שאין מן הראוי שיאשים יהושע את עכן בטענה כי מה' נלחש לו מאחורי גבו. ואילו עדות הגורל היא בפני עיני הכל.
Answer 1 - there is a difference between being a slanderer through Nevuah, a very holy method of communication between man and G-d. Only through this method would there be an issue of telling Lashon Hara, but not through a more natural method of communicating, such as a lottery.
Answer 2 - Indeed, Achan is correct in noting that a lottery does not conclusively prove anything. However, the purpose of the lottery was to put him in the spotlight and cause him to admit. (See here as well.) Indeed, Yehoshua even asks him to admit, which is emphasized by the very Gemara you are asking about.
Answer 3 - We see indications from many places that it is inappropriate to convict people from informers, who secretly tell Lashon Hara about people behind their backs. Therefore, here, Hashem desired that the lottery be done in front of the entire nation, to avoid being a private informer (this may work well with the language of the Gemara "וכי דילטור אני לך"?)
answered Jun 5 at 12:46
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
15.4k131126
answered Jun 5 at 12:46
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
15.4k131126
answered Jun 5 at 12:46
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
15.4k131126
answered Jun 5 at 12:46
רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות
15.4k131126
15.4k131126
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2
The lots on Yonah's ship worked almost exactly the same way
– Josh K
Jun 5 at 2:37
1
Probably you base it on the Posuk (Mishle 17, 33): "בַּחֵיק יוּטַל אֶת־הַגּוֹרָל וּמֵיְהוָה כָּל־מִשְׁפָּטוֹ׃" Lots are cast into the lap; The decision depends on the LORD. Maybe you should include this in the question, and that will stress the point.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 14:23
@DoubleAA That's why I decided to retract my comment.
– Al Berko
Jun 5 at 16:16