Non-African Click LanguagesThe relationship between “orange” the colour and “orange” the fruitDo we have the scientific theory why the click consonants were developed?Does any language contrast more than two trills?Are there marked/“hard” phonemes that are acquired very late or never by a substantial number of speakers?What are the stages of child speech and language development and why?How to understand the difference between “Strong” & “Weak” Hypotheses in the case of Bolinger/Lieberman's views of Intonation?How many vowels and how many consonants did the Proto-Indo-European Language have?How and when did some European languages acquire retroflex d and t?When and where did the guttural 'r' originate?Are Word Frequencies Cross-Lingual?

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Non-African Click Languages


The relationship between “orange” the colour and “orange” the fruitDo we have the scientific theory why the click consonants were developed?Does any language contrast more than two trills?Are there marked/“hard” phonemes that are acquired very late or never by a substantial number of speakers?What are the stages of child speech and language development and why?How to understand the difference between “Strong” & “Weak” Hypotheses in the case of Bolinger/Lieberman's views of Intonation?How many vowels and how many consonants did the Proto-Indo-European Language have?How and when did some European languages acquire retroflex d and t?When and where did the guttural 'r' originate?Are Word Frequencies Cross-Lingual?













12















Paralinguistic clicks are quite common across world's languages. But paralinguistic clicks usually appears as ideophones. But why is Africa the only continent that uses click consonants? Are there any theories/speculation/hypotheses for why click languages are found only in Africa?



Damin



The only non-African language known to have clicks is Damin. But to me, Damin appears to be a constructed language, used as ritual code.










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    I believe the Sentinelese use clicks (or maybe it was one the people from Andaman Islands who spoke Bo).

    – jww
    May 16 at 4:01
















12















Paralinguistic clicks are quite common across world's languages. But paralinguistic clicks usually appears as ideophones. But why is Africa the only continent that uses click consonants? Are there any theories/speculation/hypotheses for why click languages are found only in Africa?



Damin



The only non-African language known to have clicks is Damin. But to me, Damin appears to be a constructed language, used as ritual code.










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    I believe the Sentinelese use clicks (or maybe it was one the people from Andaman Islands who spoke Bo).

    – jww
    May 16 at 4:01














12












12








12


3






Paralinguistic clicks are quite common across world's languages. But paralinguistic clicks usually appears as ideophones. But why is Africa the only continent that uses click consonants? Are there any theories/speculation/hypotheses for why click languages are found only in Africa?



Damin



The only non-African language known to have clicks is Damin. But to me, Damin appears to be a constructed language, used as ritual code.










share|improve this question
















Paralinguistic clicks are quite common across world's languages. But paralinguistic clicks usually appears as ideophones. But why is Africa the only continent that uses click consonants? Are there any theories/speculation/hypotheses for why click languages are found only in Africa?



Damin



The only non-African language known to have clicks is Damin. But to me, Damin appears to be a constructed language, used as ritual code.







phonetics cross-linguistic consonants






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited May 16 at 14:31









Laurel

3135




3135










asked May 15 at 19:15









RockRock

1297




1297







  • 1





    I believe the Sentinelese use clicks (or maybe it was one the people from Andaman Islands who spoke Bo).

    – jww
    May 16 at 4:01













  • 1





    I believe the Sentinelese use clicks (or maybe it was one the people from Andaman Islands who spoke Bo).

    – jww
    May 16 at 4:01








1




1





I believe the Sentinelese use clicks (or maybe it was one the people from Andaman Islands who spoke Bo).

– jww
May 16 at 4:01






I believe the Sentinelese use clicks (or maybe it was one the people from Andaman Islands who spoke Bo).

– jww
May 16 at 4:01











2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















11














Not even African languages in general: clicks seem to have originated only in the Khoisan language "family" (*), and spread from there into neighboring languages. In other words, clicks don't seem to be an African feature so much as a Khoisan feature.



As for why they're only a Khoisan feature—it really seems to be pure random luck! Clicks appear paralinguistically, as you mention, and also show up in twin-codes, showing that they're not that difficult to come up with.



But for the most part, languages gain new consonants in two different ways: either an existing sound shifts, or bilinguals borrow a sound from one language into another. For example, /ð/ was added to Greek and Germanic when stops lenited, and to Swahili via overlap with Arabic.



Click consonants are borrowed fairly easily, which is why they're found all across southern Africa even though the Khoisan languages are rare and dying. (And why they're steadily moving up the east coast now as well!) But there just aren't any common—or even attested—sound changes that can create clicks where no clicks were before.



How Khoisan got clicks in the first place is lost to the mists of time, farther back than the comparative method can reconstruct. Maybe t → ǁ is a sound shift that happened, but it's so rare and unlikely that it only happened once in a surviving language. Or maybe language was invented independently in several places, and the version created by the pre-Khoisan-speakers just happened to include clicks while others didn't. There's unfortunately no way to know for sure now.




(*) The Khoisan languages don't seem to be a family in the same way that the Germanic languages or the Romance languages are. Rather, they're a collection of scattered languages grouped together for convenience; they all share some features, but there just isn't enough evidence to say if that's due to a genetic relationship, a sprachbund, areal features, or even just coincidence.






share|improve this answer

























  • Do you think that t → ǁ is so rare and unlikely? maybe t → ǀ seems more likely. My guess is it could happen by transphonologisation from a neighbouring vowel that was lingually ingressive in the protolanguage or something.

    – Wilson
    May 16 at 4:32











  • @Wilson I'm not sure how likely or unlikely it is, really; all I can say is that, since clicks aren't attested anywhere outside one particular sprachbund, no attested language (outside that sprachbund) can have ever gone through that sound change within attested history. "Rare" is probably a better term in retrospect.

    – Draconis
    May 16 at 4:35


















6














This is an example of areal phonetics, where certain phonetic properties are relatively widely exploited in one area, but is rare (or nonexistent) elsewhere. Another example is labiovelars such as [kp], which are almost all in the "Central Sudanic belt" of subsaharan Africa. They are universal and numerous in the "Khoisan" languages of southern Africa, also found to a lesser extent in Zulu and Xhosa (in closes proximity to Khoisan), tapering off to rareness in languages like Chopi (still in Southern Africa, southern Mozambique). They also exist in Hadza and Sandawe in Tanzania, and exist in a few words of Cushitic Dahalo.



They are actually somewhat difficult to produce, compared to other sounds. There is a tendency to open the velum during their production (the velum is normally lowered except for speech and lifting heavy stuff), and people who are not native speakers of e.g. Khoekhoe tend not to be able to integrate their articulation with that of surrounding vowels.



Excluding the more recent adoption of clicks by neighboring Bantu and Cushitic speakers, the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years, not being influenced by other phylla. Relative isolation tends to encourage the development / retention of "exotic" phonetic features, since you don't have to accommodate to the phonetic preferences of neighbors that don't have those exotic sounds. The exact phonetic mechanism that would have encouraged these sounds is not clear, but there are parallels involving velarization in southern and eastern African languages, where phonemic /tw, pw/ are often heavily velarized and partially unrounded. In Shona, this can lead to "token clicks", where a given token of intended [tˣʷ] may be produced as a kind of click. If, for example, clicks originated as a phonetic variant of standard velarization, they might have been popular enough that they spread to all of the languages down there, and there wasn't ever any reason to get rid of them.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years" - that's a far longer time depth than I've ever seen established, do you have a source fof that?

    – Mark Beadles
    May 15 at 23:10











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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









11














Not even African languages in general: clicks seem to have originated only in the Khoisan language "family" (*), and spread from there into neighboring languages. In other words, clicks don't seem to be an African feature so much as a Khoisan feature.



As for why they're only a Khoisan feature—it really seems to be pure random luck! Clicks appear paralinguistically, as you mention, and also show up in twin-codes, showing that they're not that difficult to come up with.



But for the most part, languages gain new consonants in two different ways: either an existing sound shifts, or bilinguals borrow a sound from one language into another. For example, /ð/ was added to Greek and Germanic when stops lenited, and to Swahili via overlap with Arabic.



Click consonants are borrowed fairly easily, which is why they're found all across southern Africa even though the Khoisan languages are rare and dying. (And why they're steadily moving up the east coast now as well!) But there just aren't any common—or even attested—sound changes that can create clicks where no clicks were before.



How Khoisan got clicks in the first place is lost to the mists of time, farther back than the comparative method can reconstruct. Maybe t → ǁ is a sound shift that happened, but it's so rare and unlikely that it only happened once in a surviving language. Or maybe language was invented independently in several places, and the version created by the pre-Khoisan-speakers just happened to include clicks while others didn't. There's unfortunately no way to know for sure now.




(*) The Khoisan languages don't seem to be a family in the same way that the Germanic languages or the Romance languages are. Rather, they're a collection of scattered languages grouped together for convenience; they all share some features, but there just isn't enough evidence to say if that's due to a genetic relationship, a sprachbund, areal features, or even just coincidence.






share|improve this answer

























  • Do you think that t → ǁ is so rare and unlikely? maybe t → ǀ seems more likely. My guess is it could happen by transphonologisation from a neighbouring vowel that was lingually ingressive in the protolanguage or something.

    – Wilson
    May 16 at 4:32











  • @Wilson I'm not sure how likely or unlikely it is, really; all I can say is that, since clicks aren't attested anywhere outside one particular sprachbund, no attested language (outside that sprachbund) can have ever gone through that sound change within attested history. "Rare" is probably a better term in retrospect.

    – Draconis
    May 16 at 4:35















11














Not even African languages in general: clicks seem to have originated only in the Khoisan language "family" (*), and spread from there into neighboring languages. In other words, clicks don't seem to be an African feature so much as a Khoisan feature.



As for why they're only a Khoisan feature—it really seems to be pure random luck! Clicks appear paralinguistically, as you mention, and also show up in twin-codes, showing that they're not that difficult to come up with.



But for the most part, languages gain new consonants in two different ways: either an existing sound shifts, or bilinguals borrow a sound from one language into another. For example, /ð/ was added to Greek and Germanic when stops lenited, and to Swahili via overlap with Arabic.



Click consonants are borrowed fairly easily, which is why they're found all across southern Africa even though the Khoisan languages are rare and dying. (And why they're steadily moving up the east coast now as well!) But there just aren't any common—or even attested—sound changes that can create clicks where no clicks were before.



How Khoisan got clicks in the first place is lost to the mists of time, farther back than the comparative method can reconstruct. Maybe t → ǁ is a sound shift that happened, but it's so rare and unlikely that it only happened once in a surviving language. Or maybe language was invented independently in several places, and the version created by the pre-Khoisan-speakers just happened to include clicks while others didn't. There's unfortunately no way to know for sure now.




(*) The Khoisan languages don't seem to be a family in the same way that the Germanic languages or the Romance languages are. Rather, they're a collection of scattered languages grouped together for convenience; they all share some features, but there just isn't enough evidence to say if that's due to a genetic relationship, a sprachbund, areal features, or even just coincidence.






share|improve this answer

























  • Do you think that t → ǁ is so rare and unlikely? maybe t → ǀ seems more likely. My guess is it could happen by transphonologisation from a neighbouring vowel that was lingually ingressive in the protolanguage or something.

    – Wilson
    May 16 at 4:32











  • @Wilson I'm not sure how likely or unlikely it is, really; all I can say is that, since clicks aren't attested anywhere outside one particular sprachbund, no attested language (outside that sprachbund) can have ever gone through that sound change within attested history. "Rare" is probably a better term in retrospect.

    – Draconis
    May 16 at 4:35













11












11








11







Not even African languages in general: clicks seem to have originated only in the Khoisan language "family" (*), and spread from there into neighboring languages. In other words, clicks don't seem to be an African feature so much as a Khoisan feature.



As for why they're only a Khoisan feature—it really seems to be pure random luck! Clicks appear paralinguistically, as you mention, and also show up in twin-codes, showing that they're not that difficult to come up with.



But for the most part, languages gain new consonants in two different ways: either an existing sound shifts, or bilinguals borrow a sound from one language into another. For example, /ð/ was added to Greek and Germanic when stops lenited, and to Swahili via overlap with Arabic.



Click consonants are borrowed fairly easily, which is why they're found all across southern Africa even though the Khoisan languages are rare and dying. (And why they're steadily moving up the east coast now as well!) But there just aren't any common—or even attested—sound changes that can create clicks where no clicks were before.



How Khoisan got clicks in the first place is lost to the mists of time, farther back than the comparative method can reconstruct. Maybe t → ǁ is a sound shift that happened, but it's so rare and unlikely that it only happened once in a surviving language. Or maybe language was invented independently in several places, and the version created by the pre-Khoisan-speakers just happened to include clicks while others didn't. There's unfortunately no way to know for sure now.




(*) The Khoisan languages don't seem to be a family in the same way that the Germanic languages or the Romance languages are. Rather, they're a collection of scattered languages grouped together for convenience; they all share some features, but there just isn't enough evidence to say if that's due to a genetic relationship, a sprachbund, areal features, or even just coincidence.






share|improve this answer















Not even African languages in general: clicks seem to have originated only in the Khoisan language "family" (*), and spread from there into neighboring languages. In other words, clicks don't seem to be an African feature so much as a Khoisan feature.



As for why they're only a Khoisan feature—it really seems to be pure random luck! Clicks appear paralinguistically, as you mention, and also show up in twin-codes, showing that they're not that difficult to come up with.



But for the most part, languages gain new consonants in two different ways: either an existing sound shifts, or bilinguals borrow a sound from one language into another. For example, /ð/ was added to Greek and Germanic when stops lenited, and to Swahili via overlap with Arabic.



Click consonants are borrowed fairly easily, which is why they're found all across southern Africa even though the Khoisan languages are rare and dying. (And why they're steadily moving up the east coast now as well!) But there just aren't any common—or even attested—sound changes that can create clicks where no clicks were before.



How Khoisan got clicks in the first place is lost to the mists of time, farther back than the comparative method can reconstruct. Maybe t → ǁ is a sound shift that happened, but it's so rare and unlikely that it only happened once in a surviving language. Or maybe language was invented independently in several places, and the version created by the pre-Khoisan-speakers just happened to include clicks while others didn't. There's unfortunately no way to know for sure now.




(*) The Khoisan languages don't seem to be a family in the same way that the Germanic languages or the Romance languages are. Rather, they're a collection of scattered languages grouped together for convenience; they all share some features, but there just isn't enough evidence to say if that's due to a genetic relationship, a sprachbund, areal features, or even just coincidence.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited May 17 at 0:56

























answered May 15 at 21:41









DraconisDraconis

15k12361




15k12361












  • Do you think that t → ǁ is so rare and unlikely? maybe t → ǀ seems more likely. My guess is it could happen by transphonologisation from a neighbouring vowel that was lingually ingressive in the protolanguage or something.

    – Wilson
    May 16 at 4:32











  • @Wilson I'm not sure how likely or unlikely it is, really; all I can say is that, since clicks aren't attested anywhere outside one particular sprachbund, no attested language (outside that sprachbund) can have ever gone through that sound change within attested history. "Rare" is probably a better term in retrospect.

    – Draconis
    May 16 at 4:35

















  • Do you think that t → ǁ is so rare and unlikely? maybe t → ǀ seems more likely. My guess is it could happen by transphonologisation from a neighbouring vowel that was lingually ingressive in the protolanguage or something.

    – Wilson
    May 16 at 4:32











  • @Wilson I'm not sure how likely or unlikely it is, really; all I can say is that, since clicks aren't attested anywhere outside one particular sprachbund, no attested language (outside that sprachbund) can have ever gone through that sound change within attested history. "Rare" is probably a better term in retrospect.

    – Draconis
    May 16 at 4:35
















Do you think that t → ǁ is so rare and unlikely? maybe t → ǀ seems more likely. My guess is it could happen by transphonologisation from a neighbouring vowel that was lingually ingressive in the protolanguage or something.

– Wilson
May 16 at 4:32





Do you think that t → ǁ is so rare and unlikely? maybe t → ǀ seems more likely. My guess is it could happen by transphonologisation from a neighbouring vowel that was lingually ingressive in the protolanguage or something.

– Wilson
May 16 at 4:32













@Wilson I'm not sure how likely or unlikely it is, really; all I can say is that, since clicks aren't attested anywhere outside one particular sprachbund, no attested language (outside that sprachbund) can have ever gone through that sound change within attested history. "Rare" is probably a better term in retrospect.

– Draconis
May 16 at 4:35





@Wilson I'm not sure how likely or unlikely it is, really; all I can say is that, since clicks aren't attested anywhere outside one particular sprachbund, no attested language (outside that sprachbund) can have ever gone through that sound change within attested history. "Rare" is probably a better term in retrospect.

– Draconis
May 16 at 4:35











6














This is an example of areal phonetics, where certain phonetic properties are relatively widely exploited in one area, but is rare (or nonexistent) elsewhere. Another example is labiovelars such as [kp], which are almost all in the "Central Sudanic belt" of subsaharan Africa. They are universal and numerous in the "Khoisan" languages of southern Africa, also found to a lesser extent in Zulu and Xhosa (in closes proximity to Khoisan), tapering off to rareness in languages like Chopi (still in Southern Africa, southern Mozambique). They also exist in Hadza and Sandawe in Tanzania, and exist in a few words of Cushitic Dahalo.



They are actually somewhat difficult to produce, compared to other sounds. There is a tendency to open the velum during their production (the velum is normally lowered except for speech and lifting heavy stuff), and people who are not native speakers of e.g. Khoekhoe tend not to be able to integrate their articulation with that of surrounding vowels.



Excluding the more recent adoption of clicks by neighboring Bantu and Cushitic speakers, the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years, not being influenced by other phylla. Relative isolation tends to encourage the development / retention of "exotic" phonetic features, since you don't have to accommodate to the phonetic preferences of neighbors that don't have those exotic sounds. The exact phonetic mechanism that would have encouraged these sounds is not clear, but there are parallels involving velarization in southern and eastern African languages, where phonemic /tw, pw/ are often heavily velarized and partially unrounded. In Shona, this can lead to "token clicks", where a given token of intended [tˣʷ] may be produced as a kind of click. If, for example, clicks originated as a phonetic variant of standard velarization, they might have been popular enough that they spread to all of the languages down there, and there wasn't ever any reason to get rid of them.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years" - that's a far longer time depth than I've ever seen established, do you have a source fof that?

    – Mark Beadles
    May 15 at 23:10















6














This is an example of areal phonetics, where certain phonetic properties are relatively widely exploited in one area, but is rare (or nonexistent) elsewhere. Another example is labiovelars such as [kp], which are almost all in the "Central Sudanic belt" of subsaharan Africa. They are universal and numerous in the "Khoisan" languages of southern Africa, also found to a lesser extent in Zulu and Xhosa (in closes proximity to Khoisan), tapering off to rareness in languages like Chopi (still in Southern Africa, southern Mozambique). They also exist in Hadza and Sandawe in Tanzania, and exist in a few words of Cushitic Dahalo.



They are actually somewhat difficult to produce, compared to other sounds. There is a tendency to open the velum during their production (the velum is normally lowered except for speech and lifting heavy stuff), and people who are not native speakers of e.g. Khoekhoe tend not to be able to integrate their articulation with that of surrounding vowels.



Excluding the more recent adoption of clicks by neighboring Bantu and Cushitic speakers, the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years, not being influenced by other phylla. Relative isolation tends to encourage the development / retention of "exotic" phonetic features, since you don't have to accommodate to the phonetic preferences of neighbors that don't have those exotic sounds. The exact phonetic mechanism that would have encouraged these sounds is not clear, but there are parallels involving velarization in southern and eastern African languages, where phonemic /tw, pw/ are often heavily velarized and partially unrounded. In Shona, this can lead to "token clicks", where a given token of intended [tˣʷ] may be produced as a kind of click. If, for example, clicks originated as a phonetic variant of standard velarization, they might have been popular enough that they spread to all of the languages down there, and there wasn't ever any reason to get rid of them.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years" - that's a far longer time depth than I've ever seen established, do you have a source fof that?

    – Mark Beadles
    May 15 at 23:10













6












6








6







This is an example of areal phonetics, where certain phonetic properties are relatively widely exploited in one area, but is rare (or nonexistent) elsewhere. Another example is labiovelars such as [kp], which are almost all in the "Central Sudanic belt" of subsaharan Africa. They are universal and numerous in the "Khoisan" languages of southern Africa, also found to a lesser extent in Zulu and Xhosa (in closes proximity to Khoisan), tapering off to rareness in languages like Chopi (still in Southern Africa, southern Mozambique). They also exist in Hadza and Sandawe in Tanzania, and exist in a few words of Cushitic Dahalo.



They are actually somewhat difficult to produce, compared to other sounds. There is a tendency to open the velum during their production (the velum is normally lowered except for speech and lifting heavy stuff), and people who are not native speakers of e.g. Khoekhoe tend not to be able to integrate their articulation with that of surrounding vowels.



Excluding the more recent adoption of clicks by neighboring Bantu and Cushitic speakers, the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years, not being influenced by other phylla. Relative isolation tends to encourage the development / retention of "exotic" phonetic features, since you don't have to accommodate to the phonetic preferences of neighbors that don't have those exotic sounds. The exact phonetic mechanism that would have encouraged these sounds is not clear, but there are parallels involving velarization in southern and eastern African languages, where phonemic /tw, pw/ are often heavily velarized and partially unrounded. In Shona, this can lead to "token clicks", where a given token of intended [tˣʷ] may be produced as a kind of click. If, for example, clicks originated as a phonetic variant of standard velarization, they might have been popular enough that they spread to all of the languages down there, and there wasn't ever any reason to get rid of them.






share|improve this answer













This is an example of areal phonetics, where certain phonetic properties are relatively widely exploited in one area, but is rare (or nonexistent) elsewhere. Another example is labiovelars such as [kp], which are almost all in the "Central Sudanic belt" of subsaharan Africa. They are universal and numerous in the "Khoisan" languages of southern Africa, also found to a lesser extent in Zulu and Xhosa (in closes proximity to Khoisan), tapering off to rareness in languages like Chopi (still in Southern Africa, southern Mozambique). They also exist in Hadza and Sandawe in Tanzania, and exist in a few words of Cushitic Dahalo.



They are actually somewhat difficult to produce, compared to other sounds. There is a tendency to open the velum during their production (the velum is normally lowered except for speech and lifting heavy stuff), and people who are not native speakers of e.g. Khoekhoe tend not to be able to integrate their articulation with that of surrounding vowels.



Excluding the more recent adoption of clicks by neighboring Bantu and Cushitic speakers, the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years, not being influenced by other phylla. Relative isolation tends to encourage the development / retention of "exotic" phonetic features, since you don't have to accommodate to the phonetic preferences of neighbors that don't have those exotic sounds. The exact phonetic mechanism that would have encouraged these sounds is not clear, but there are parallels involving velarization in southern and eastern African languages, where phonemic /tw, pw/ are often heavily velarized and partially unrounded. In Shona, this can lead to "token clicks", where a given token of intended [tˣʷ] may be produced as a kind of click. If, for example, clicks originated as a phonetic variant of standard velarization, they might have been popular enough that they spread to all of the languages down there, and there wasn't ever any reason to get rid of them.







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answered May 15 at 21:41









user6726user6726

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  • 3





    "the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years" - that's a far longer time depth than I've ever seen established, do you have a source fof that?

    – Mark Beadles
    May 15 at 23:10












  • 3





    "the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years" - that's a far longer time depth than I've ever seen established, do you have a source fof that?

    – Mark Beadles
    May 15 at 23:10







3




3





"the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years" - that's a far longer time depth than I've ever seen established, do you have a source fof that?

– Mark Beadles
May 15 at 23:10





"the languages with clicks have been spoken fairly undisturbed in situ for tens of thousands of years" - that's a far longer time depth than I've ever seen established, do you have a source fof that?

– Mark Beadles
May 15 at 23:10

















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