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Can a person still be an Orthodox Jew and believe that the Torah contains narratives that are not scientifically correct?
Bereishit vs. scienceWere Midrashim and Aggadeta transmitted to Moshe on Sinai like the Halachic Torah She'be'al Peh?Voting for a person that will not uphold Torah valuesGood books for non-Jews who are interested in understanding Judaism, especially branches of Orthodox judaismHow are pre-creation >4000 BCE human civilization and pre-flood >2300 BCE civilizations that continued reconciled with Judaism?Is there any precedent to read the first 11 chapters of Genesis as metaphorical?Does Judaism have a double standard?Can an Orthodox Jew go to a reform burial?Why does Orthodox Judaism not believe in the New Testament?Can someone explain the idea that God “created the world with the Torah”?How do we know that non-commandments in the Torah still apply today?What is the Halachic protocol for assessing an alleged Apikores?
I am taking the position that perhaps the Torah does contain narratives that are not scientifically correct, such as the creation and early human history narratives found in the first 11 chapters of Bereshit. Something to have in mind before you give your answer is that Rambam’s 13 principles seem to say that we should believe that God gave everything in the Torah to Moses (I suppose that would even include some of the narratives that are not scientifically factual), and that nothing in the Torah changed or will ever change. So now with that in mind: Would believing that some of the narratives in the Torah are not scientifically factual no longer make me Orthodox and brand me as a heretic, or would I still remain Orthodox?
hashkafah-philosophy creation orthodox
edited May 15 at 18:20
Clifford Durousseau
1,269623
asked May 15 at 17:54
user19166user19166
323
|
show 6 more comments
I am taking the position that perhaps the Torah does contain narratives that are not scientifically correct, such as the creation and early human history narratives found in the first 11 chapters of Bereshit. Something to have in mind before you give your answer is that Rambam’s 13 principles seem to say that we should believe that God gave everything in the Torah to Moses (I suppose that would even include some of the narratives that are not scientifically factual), and that nothing in the Torah changed or will ever change. So now with that in mind: Would believing that some of the narratives in the Torah are not scientifically factual no longer make me Orthodox and brand me as a heretic, or would I still remain Orthodox?
hashkafah-philosophy creation orthodox
edited May 15 at 18:20
Clifford Durousseau
1,269623
asked May 15 at 17:54
user19166user19166
323
2
Can you define "Orthodox"? There's no official orthodox governing body
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 18:03
Those communities and members that have a stringent observance of Halacha. I really don't know any other way to define it.
– user19166
May 15 at 18:29
1
@Menachem fwiw the Rabbi alluded to is Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon and you rely on his rulings all the time in one way or another.
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 19:12
3
There are plenty of very observant Jews who daven at Orthodox shuls, keep kosher, keep Shabbat and believe, for example, the 6 days of creation lasted much longer than the sort of days we are accustombed to,that perhaps there are parts of the world that were not destroyed by the Mabul (Flood), and have many other non-literal interpretations of events in Tanakh, particularly in Bereshit.
– Josh K
May 15 at 19:29
1
Helpful question with many answers judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/30/bereishit-vs-science
– alicht
May 15 at 19:36
|
show 6 more comments
I am taking the position that perhaps the Torah does contain narratives that are not scientifically correct, such as the creation and early human history narratives found in the first 11 chapters of Bereshit. Something to have in mind before you give your answer is that Rambam’s 13 principles seem to say that we should believe that God gave everything in the Torah to Moses (I suppose that would even include some of the narratives that are not scientifically factual), and that nothing in the Torah changed or will ever change. So now with that in mind: Would believing that some of the narratives in the Torah are not scientifically factual no longer make me Orthodox and brand me as a heretic, or would I still remain Orthodox?
hashkafah-philosophy creation orthodox
edited May 15 at 18:20
Clifford Durousseau
1,269623
asked May 15 at 17:54
user19166user19166
323
I am taking the position that perhaps the Torah does contain narratives that are not scientifically correct, such as the creation and early human history narratives found in the first 11 chapters of Bereshit. Something to have in mind before you give your answer is that Rambam’s 13 principles seem to say that we should believe that God gave everything in the Torah to Moses (I suppose that would even include some of the narratives that are not scientifically factual), and that nothing in the Torah changed or will ever change. So now with that in mind: Would believing that some of the narratives in the Torah are not scientifically factual no longer make me Orthodox and brand me as a heretic, or would I still remain Orthodox?
hashkafah-philosophy creation orthodox
hashkafah-philosophy creation orthodox
edited May 15 at 18:20
Clifford Durousseau
1,269623
asked May 15 at 17:54
user19166user19166
323
edited May 15 at 18:20
Clifford Durousseau
1,269623
asked May 15 at 17:54
user19166user19166
323
edited May 15 at 18:20
Clifford Durousseau
1,269623
edited May 15 at 18:20
Clifford Durousseau
1,269623
edited May 15 at 18:20
Clifford Durousseau
1,269623
1,269623
asked May 15 at 17:54
user19166user19166
323
asked May 15 at 17:54
user19166user19166
323
asked May 15 at 17:54
user19166user19166
323
323
2
Can you define "Orthodox"? There's no official orthodox governing body
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 18:03
Those communities and members that have a stringent observance of Halacha. I really don't know any other way to define it.
– user19166
May 15 at 18:29
1
@Menachem fwiw the Rabbi alluded to is Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon and you rely on his rulings all the time in one way or another.
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 19:12
3
There are plenty of very observant Jews who daven at Orthodox shuls, keep kosher, keep Shabbat and believe, for example, the 6 days of creation lasted much longer than the sort of days we are accustombed to,that perhaps there are parts of the world that were not destroyed by the Mabul (Flood), and have many other non-literal interpretations of events in Tanakh, particularly in Bereshit.
– Josh K
May 15 at 19:29
1
Helpful question with many answers judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/30/bereishit-vs-science
– alicht
May 15 at 19:36
|
show 6 more comments
2
Can you define "Orthodox"? There's no official orthodox governing body
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 18:03
Those communities and members that have a stringent observance of Halacha. I really don't know any other way to define it.
– user19166
May 15 at 18:29
1
@Menachem fwiw the Rabbi alluded to is Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon and you rely on his rulings all the time in one way or another.
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 19:12
3
There are plenty of very observant Jews who daven at Orthodox shuls, keep kosher, keep Shabbat and believe, for example, the 6 days of creation lasted much longer than the sort of days we are accustombed to,that perhaps there are parts of the world that were not destroyed by the Mabul (Flood), and have many other non-literal interpretations of events in Tanakh, particularly in Bereshit.
– Josh K
May 15 at 19:29
1
Helpful question with many answers judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/30/bereishit-vs-science
– alicht
May 15 at 19:36
2
2
Can you define "Orthodox"? There's no official orthodox governing body
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 18:03
Can you define "Orthodox"? There's no official orthodox governing body
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 18:03
Those communities and members that have a stringent observance of Halacha. I really don't know any other way to define it.
– user19166
May 15 at 18:29
Those communities and members that have a stringent observance of Halacha. I really don't know any other way to define it.
– user19166
May 15 at 18:29
1
1
@Menachem fwiw the Rabbi alluded to is Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon and you rely on his rulings all the time in one way or another.
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 19:12
@Menachem fwiw the Rabbi alluded to is Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon and you rely on his rulings all the time in one way or another.
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 19:12
3
3
There are plenty of very observant Jews who daven at Orthodox shuls, keep kosher, keep Shabbat and believe, for example, the 6 days of creation lasted much longer than the sort of days we are accustombed to,that perhaps there are parts of the world that were not destroyed by the Mabul (Flood), and have many other non-literal interpretations of events in Tanakh, particularly in Bereshit.
– Josh K
May 15 at 19:29
There are plenty of very observant Jews who daven at Orthodox shuls, keep kosher, keep Shabbat and believe, for example, the 6 days of creation lasted much longer than the sort of days we are accustombed to,that perhaps there are parts of the world that were not destroyed by the Mabul (Flood), and have many other non-literal interpretations of events in Tanakh, particularly in Bereshit.
– Josh K
May 15 at 19:29
1
1
Helpful question with many answers judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/30/bereishit-vs-science
– alicht
May 15 at 19:36
Helpful question with many answers judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/30/bereishit-vs-science
– alicht
May 15 at 19:36
|
show 6 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
The Rambam believed that the Torah is not intended to be history or science, but ethical teachings:
Those passages in the Bible, which, in their literal sense, contain statements that can be refuted by proof, can and must be interpreted otherwise. [Rambam, Guide to the Perplexed, 2:25]
answered May 15 at 21:52
Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi
2,826316
add a comment |
The Torah, the Talmud and Chazal do not use the artificial label "Orthodox" or recognize subcategories of Judaism, it is just one religion. And you remain as Jewish as the rest of us even if you question and doubt. Yes, events described in the Torah are ofttimes inconsistent with laws of nature as we know it, or current scientific knowledge, and could only have occurred miraculously. We believe in miracles, and that things happen beyond the rules of nature, Shelo B'derech Hateva. Don't label or brand yourself if you do not yet see the miracles in every day life.
answered May 15 at 18:33
dandan
1276
add a comment |
אם אין יראה, אין חכמה
If there is no fear, there is no wisdom.
(משנה אבות ג יז)
וְעַתָּה֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל מָ֚ה יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ שֹׁאֵ֖ל מֵעִמָּ֑ךְ כִּ֣י אִם־לְ֠יִרְאָ֠ה אֶת־יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהֶ֜יךָ לָלֶ֤כֶת בְּכׇל־דְּרָכָיו֙ וּלְאַהֲבָ֣ה
אֹת֔וֹ וְלַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ בְּכׇל־לְבָבְךָ֖ וּבְכׇל־נַפְשֶֽׁךָ׃
(דברים י:יב)
All that is demanded of a Jew is that they fear the ultimate consequences of their actions and beliefs. In regards to this example: They must fear the possibility that when they will face the ultimate judgement in front of their Creator, He will reveal to them exactly how all the stories in the Torah were literally and scientifically true and they will immediately feel drenched in shame for having lived a live that dismissed that possibility. Simultaneously, they must fear the possibility that on judgement day, their Creator will reveal that the stories in the Torah were not intended to be taken literally and they will feel ashamed for not having given that possibility proper consideration.
To answer your question: If you are dismissing entirely the possibility that the stories in the Torah are scientifically accurate then you have strayed from the path of what is fundamentally required of a Jew.
However, if you just mean to say that given the context, arguments, and possibilities you have been presented so far, you lean towards the understanding that the stories in the Torah are not meant to be taken literally, yet remain open to the other possibility, and fearful that, indeed, the reverse may be true then you are well within the confines of Orthodox Judaism.
Although as others have pointed out, there exist people who consider themselves Orthodox Jews yet do not demonstrate Yirei Shamayim, and others who do, yet do not identify as Orthodox.
answered May 16 at 19:50
SilverSilver
1936
add a comment |
Many are the essays and books which have been written on the discrepancies between the scientific account of the mode in which our globe came into being, and the account given in this first chapter of the Bible. (John Dummelow's Commentary on the Bible)
The Torah is not a textbook of science. It is a textbook of religion, of the Jewish religion. It has been recognized since the nineteenth century, since the time of Charles Darwin, that the Torah does not agree with the findings of biology (the age of man), geology (the age of the earth), and astronomy (the age of the universe). The Torah does indeed contain narraatives which are not scientifically correct, in particular, the Pentateuchal cosmogony (Beréshit 1:1-2:3). In spite of this, the Torah recounts that God Himself came down on Mount Sinai and gave the Decalogue to the children of Israel. This is an irrefutable fact. The deliverance of Israel from slavery in Egypt and its continued existence until this very day are also irrefutable facts. To so believe does not make you a heretic.
answered May 16 at 5:39
Clifford DurousseauClifford Durousseau
1,269623
Not just the Ten Commandments, but the whole Written and Oral Law...
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 6:17
I do not see anywhere in the Torah where God gave the whole five books to Moses. (Moshe).
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 6:28
I'm sure this question has been already asked here, but you can start reading on WP as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_given_to_Moses_at_Sinai
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 8:47
@Kazi bacs I live in Turkey, where Wikipedia has been banned by the president. So I am not able to access that article.
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 8:55
You're right, sorry. I've found a related question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/95790/15256
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 9:06
|
show 2 more comments
Based on the unanimously accepted Rambam's 13 principles, as long as a person truly believes that the Torah we possess is exactly what was given at Sinai by G-d, he's considered pious and not asked on the details.
A person is not asked/tested whether Avraham was a real man, if Exodus was real or if the facts of the Torah match our empirical reality.
answered May 16 at 11:47
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,4872631
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The Rambam believed that the Torah is not intended to be history or science, but ethical teachings:
Those passages in the Bible, which, in their literal sense, contain statements that can be refuted by proof, can and must be interpreted otherwise. [Rambam, Guide to the Perplexed, 2:25]
answered May 15 at 21:52
Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi
2,826316
add a comment |
The Rambam believed that the Torah is not intended to be history or science, but ethical teachings:
Those passages in the Bible, which, in their literal sense, contain statements that can be refuted by proof, can and must be interpreted otherwise. [Rambam, Guide to the Perplexed, 2:25]
answered May 15 at 21:52
Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi
2,826316
add a comment |
The Rambam believed that the Torah is not intended to be history or science, but ethical teachings:
Those passages in the Bible, which, in their literal sense, contain statements that can be refuted by proof, can and must be interpreted otherwise. [Rambam, Guide to the Perplexed, 2:25]
answered May 15 at 21:52
Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi
2,826316
The Rambam believed that the Torah is not intended to be history or science, but ethical teachings:
Those passages in the Bible, which, in their literal sense, contain statements that can be refuted by proof, can and must be interpreted otherwise. [Rambam, Guide to the Perplexed, 2:25]
answered May 15 at 21:52
Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi
2,826316
answered May 15 at 21:52
Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi
2,826316
answered May 15 at 21:52
Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi
2,826316
answered May 15 at 21:52
Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi
2,826316
2,826316
add a comment |
add a comment |
The Torah, the Talmud and Chazal do not use the artificial label "Orthodox" or recognize subcategories of Judaism, it is just one religion. And you remain as Jewish as the rest of us even if you question and doubt. Yes, events described in the Torah are ofttimes inconsistent with laws of nature as we know it, or current scientific knowledge, and could only have occurred miraculously. We believe in miracles, and that things happen beyond the rules of nature, Shelo B'derech Hateva. Don't label or brand yourself if you do not yet see the miracles in every day life.
answered May 15 at 18:33
dandan
1276
add a comment |
The Torah, the Talmud and Chazal do not use the artificial label "Orthodox" or recognize subcategories of Judaism, it is just one religion. And you remain as Jewish as the rest of us even if you question and doubt. Yes, events described in the Torah are ofttimes inconsistent with laws of nature as we know it, or current scientific knowledge, and could only have occurred miraculously. We believe in miracles, and that things happen beyond the rules of nature, Shelo B'derech Hateva. Don't label or brand yourself if you do not yet see the miracles in every day life.
answered May 15 at 18:33
dandan
1276
add a comment |
The Torah, the Talmud and Chazal do not use the artificial label "Orthodox" or recognize subcategories of Judaism, it is just one religion. And you remain as Jewish as the rest of us even if you question and doubt. Yes, events described in the Torah are ofttimes inconsistent with laws of nature as we know it, or current scientific knowledge, and could only have occurred miraculously. We believe in miracles, and that things happen beyond the rules of nature, Shelo B'derech Hateva. Don't label or brand yourself if you do not yet see the miracles in every day life.
answered May 15 at 18:33
dandan
1276
The Torah, the Talmud and Chazal do not use the artificial label "Orthodox" or recognize subcategories of Judaism, it is just one religion. And you remain as Jewish as the rest of us even if you question and doubt. Yes, events described in the Torah are ofttimes inconsistent with laws of nature as we know it, or current scientific knowledge, and could only have occurred miraculously. We believe in miracles, and that things happen beyond the rules of nature, Shelo B'derech Hateva. Don't label or brand yourself if you do not yet see the miracles in every day life.
answered May 15 at 18:33
dandan
1276
edited May 15 at 18:58
answered May 15 at 18:33
dandan
1276
answered May 15 at 18:33
dandan
1276
answered May 15 at 18:33
dandan
1276
1276
add a comment |
add a comment |
אם אין יראה, אין חכמה
If there is no fear, there is no wisdom.
(משנה אבות ג יז)
וְעַתָּה֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל מָ֚ה יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ שֹׁאֵ֖ל מֵעִמָּ֑ךְ כִּ֣י אִם־לְ֠יִרְאָ֠ה אֶת־יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהֶ֜יךָ לָלֶ֤כֶת בְּכׇל־דְּרָכָיו֙ וּלְאַהֲבָ֣ה
אֹת֔וֹ וְלַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ בְּכׇל־לְבָבְךָ֖ וּבְכׇל־נַפְשֶֽׁךָ׃
(דברים י:יב)
All that is demanded of a Jew is that they fear the ultimate consequences of their actions and beliefs. In regards to this example: They must fear the possibility that when they will face the ultimate judgement in front of their Creator, He will reveal to them exactly how all the stories in the Torah were literally and scientifically true and they will immediately feel drenched in shame for having lived a live that dismissed that possibility. Simultaneously, they must fear the possibility that on judgement day, their Creator will reveal that the stories in the Torah were not intended to be taken literally and they will feel ashamed for not having given that possibility proper consideration.
To answer your question: If you are dismissing entirely the possibility that the stories in the Torah are scientifically accurate then you have strayed from the path of what is fundamentally required of a Jew.
However, if you just mean to say that given the context, arguments, and possibilities you have been presented so far, you lean towards the understanding that the stories in the Torah are not meant to be taken literally, yet remain open to the other possibility, and fearful that, indeed, the reverse may be true then you are well within the confines of Orthodox Judaism.
Although as others have pointed out, there exist people who consider themselves Orthodox Jews yet do not demonstrate Yirei Shamayim, and others who do, yet do not identify as Orthodox.
answered May 16 at 19:50
SilverSilver
1936
add a comment |
אם אין יראה, אין חכמה
If there is no fear, there is no wisdom.
(משנה אבות ג יז)
וְעַתָּה֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל מָ֚ה יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ שֹׁאֵ֖ל מֵעִמָּ֑ךְ כִּ֣י אִם־לְ֠יִרְאָ֠ה אֶת־יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהֶ֜יךָ לָלֶ֤כֶת בְּכׇל־דְּרָכָיו֙ וּלְאַהֲבָ֣ה
אֹת֔וֹ וְלַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ בְּכׇל־לְבָבְךָ֖ וּבְכׇל־נַפְשֶֽׁךָ׃
(דברים י:יב)
All that is demanded of a Jew is that they fear the ultimate consequences of their actions and beliefs. In regards to this example: They must fear the possibility that when they will face the ultimate judgement in front of their Creator, He will reveal to them exactly how all the stories in the Torah were literally and scientifically true and they will immediately feel drenched in shame for having lived a live that dismissed that possibility. Simultaneously, they must fear the possibility that on judgement day, their Creator will reveal that the stories in the Torah were not intended to be taken literally and they will feel ashamed for not having given that possibility proper consideration.
To answer your question: If you are dismissing entirely the possibility that the stories in the Torah are scientifically accurate then you have strayed from the path of what is fundamentally required of a Jew.
However, if you just mean to say that given the context, arguments, and possibilities you have been presented so far, you lean towards the understanding that the stories in the Torah are not meant to be taken literally, yet remain open to the other possibility, and fearful that, indeed, the reverse may be true then you are well within the confines of Orthodox Judaism.
Although as others have pointed out, there exist people who consider themselves Orthodox Jews yet do not demonstrate Yirei Shamayim, and others who do, yet do not identify as Orthodox.
answered May 16 at 19:50
SilverSilver
1936
add a comment |
אם אין יראה, אין חכמה
If there is no fear, there is no wisdom.
(משנה אבות ג יז)
וְעַתָּה֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל מָ֚ה יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ שֹׁאֵ֖ל מֵעִמָּ֑ךְ כִּ֣י אִם־לְ֠יִרְאָ֠ה אֶת־יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהֶ֜יךָ לָלֶ֤כֶת בְּכׇל־דְּרָכָיו֙ וּלְאַהֲבָ֣ה
אֹת֔וֹ וְלַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ בְּכׇל־לְבָבְךָ֖ וּבְכׇל־נַפְשֶֽׁךָ׃
(דברים י:יב)
All that is demanded of a Jew is that they fear the ultimate consequences of their actions and beliefs. In regards to this example: They must fear the possibility that when they will face the ultimate judgement in front of their Creator, He will reveal to them exactly how all the stories in the Torah were literally and scientifically true and they will immediately feel drenched in shame for having lived a live that dismissed that possibility. Simultaneously, they must fear the possibility that on judgement day, their Creator will reveal that the stories in the Torah were not intended to be taken literally and they will feel ashamed for not having given that possibility proper consideration.
To answer your question: If you are dismissing entirely the possibility that the stories in the Torah are scientifically accurate then you have strayed from the path of what is fundamentally required of a Jew.
However, if you just mean to say that given the context, arguments, and possibilities you have been presented so far, you lean towards the understanding that the stories in the Torah are not meant to be taken literally, yet remain open to the other possibility, and fearful that, indeed, the reverse may be true then you are well within the confines of Orthodox Judaism.
Although as others have pointed out, there exist people who consider themselves Orthodox Jews yet do not demonstrate Yirei Shamayim, and others who do, yet do not identify as Orthodox.
answered May 16 at 19:50
SilverSilver
1936
אם אין יראה, אין חכמה
If there is no fear, there is no wisdom.
(משנה אבות ג יז)
וְעַתָּה֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל מָ֚ה יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ שֹׁאֵ֖ל מֵעִמָּ֑ךְ כִּ֣י אִם־לְ֠יִרְאָ֠ה אֶת־יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהֶ֜יךָ לָלֶ֤כֶת בְּכׇל־דְּרָכָיו֙ וּלְאַהֲבָ֣ה
אֹת֔וֹ וְלַֽעֲבֹד֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ בְּכׇל־לְבָבְךָ֖ וּבְכׇל־נַפְשֶֽׁךָ׃
(דברים י:יב)
All that is demanded of a Jew is that they fear the ultimate consequences of their actions and beliefs. In regards to this example: They must fear the possibility that when they will face the ultimate judgement in front of their Creator, He will reveal to them exactly how all the stories in the Torah were literally and scientifically true and they will immediately feel drenched in shame for having lived a live that dismissed that possibility. Simultaneously, they must fear the possibility that on judgement day, their Creator will reveal that the stories in the Torah were not intended to be taken literally and they will feel ashamed for not having given that possibility proper consideration.
To answer your question: If you are dismissing entirely the possibility that the stories in the Torah are scientifically accurate then you have strayed from the path of what is fundamentally required of a Jew.
However, if you just mean to say that given the context, arguments, and possibilities you have been presented so far, you lean towards the understanding that the stories in the Torah are not meant to be taken literally, yet remain open to the other possibility, and fearful that, indeed, the reverse may be true then you are well within the confines of Orthodox Judaism.
Although as others have pointed out, there exist people who consider themselves Orthodox Jews yet do not demonstrate Yirei Shamayim, and others who do, yet do not identify as Orthodox.
answered May 16 at 19:50
SilverSilver
1936
edited May 16 at 19:56
answered May 16 at 19:50
SilverSilver
1936
answered May 16 at 19:50
SilverSilver
1936
answered May 16 at 19:50
SilverSilver
1936
1936
add a comment |
add a comment |
Many are the essays and books which have been written on the discrepancies between the scientific account of the mode in which our globe came into being, and the account given in this first chapter of the Bible. (John Dummelow's Commentary on the Bible)
The Torah is not a textbook of science. It is a textbook of religion, of the Jewish religion. It has been recognized since the nineteenth century, since the time of Charles Darwin, that the Torah does not agree with the findings of biology (the age of man), geology (the age of the earth), and astronomy (the age of the universe). The Torah does indeed contain narraatives which are not scientifically correct, in particular, the Pentateuchal cosmogony (Beréshit 1:1-2:3). In spite of this, the Torah recounts that God Himself came down on Mount Sinai and gave the Decalogue to the children of Israel. This is an irrefutable fact. The deliverance of Israel from slavery in Egypt and its continued existence until this very day are also irrefutable facts. To so believe does not make you a heretic.
answered May 16 at 5:39
Clifford DurousseauClifford Durousseau
1,269623
Not just the Ten Commandments, but the whole Written and Oral Law...
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 6:17
I do not see anywhere in the Torah where God gave the whole five books to Moses. (Moshe).
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 6:28
I'm sure this question has been already asked here, but you can start reading on WP as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_given_to_Moses_at_Sinai
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 8:47
@Kazi bacs I live in Turkey, where Wikipedia has been banned by the president. So I am not able to access that article.
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 8:55
You're right, sorry. I've found a related question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/95790/15256
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 9:06
|
show 2 more comments
Many are the essays and books which have been written on the discrepancies between the scientific account of the mode in which our globe came into being, and the account given in this first chapter of the Bible. (John Dummelow's Commentary on the Bible)
The Torah is not a textbook of science. It is a textbook of religion, of the Jewish religion. It has been recognized since the nineteenth century, since the time of Charles Darwin, that the Torah does not agree with the findings of biology (the age of man), geology (the age of the earth), and astronomy (the age of the universe). The Torah does indeed contain narraatives which are not scientifically correct, in particular, the Pentateuchal cosmogony (Beréshit 1:1-2:3). In spite of this, the Torah recounts that God Himself came down on Mount Sinai and gave the Decalogue to the children of Israel. This is an irrefutable fact. The deliverance of Israel from slavery in Egypt and its continued existence until this very day are also irrefutable facts. To so believe does not make you a heretic.
answered May 16 at 5:39
Clifford DurousseauClifford Durousseau
1,269623
Not just the Ten Commandments, but the whole Written and Oral Law...
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 6:17
I do not see anywhere in the Torah where God gave the whole five books to Moses. (Moshe).
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 6:28
I'm sure this question has been already asked here, but you can start reading on WP as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_given_to_Moses_at_Sinai
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 8:47
@Kazi bacs I live in Turkey, where Wikipedia has been banned by the president. So I am not able to access that article.
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 8:55
You're right, sorry. I've found a related question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/95790/15256
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 9:06
|
show 2 more comments
Many are the essays and books which have been written on the discrepancies between the scientific account of the mode in which our globe came into being, and the account given in this first chapter of the Bible. (John Dummelow's Commentary on the Bible)
The Torah is not a textbook of science. It is a textbook of religion, of the Jewish religion. It has been recognized since the nineteenth century, since the time of Charles Darwin, that the Torah does not agree with the findings of biology (the age of man), geology (the age of the earth), and astronomy (the age of the universe). The Torah does indeed contain narraatives which are not scientifically correct, in particular, the Pentateuchal cosmogony (Beréshit 1:1-2:3). In spite of this, the Torah recounts that God Himself came down on Mount Sinai and gave the Decalogue to the children of Israel. This is an irrefutable fact. The deliverance of Israel from slavery in Egypt and its continued existence until this very day are also irrefutable facts. To so believe does not make you a heretic.
answered May 16 at 5:39
Clifford DurousseauClifford Durousseau
1,269623
Many are the essays and books which have been written on the discrepancies between the scientific account of the mode in which our globe came into being, and the account given in this first chapter of the Bible. (John Dummelow's Commentary on the Bible)
The Torah is not a textbook of science. It is a textbook of religion, of the Jewish religion. It has been recognized since the nineteenth century, since the time of Charles Darwin, that the Torah does not agree with the findings of biology (the age of man), geology (the age of the earth), and astronomy (the age of the universe). The Torah does indeed contain narraatives which are not scientifically correct, in particular, the Pentateuchal cosmogony (Beréshit 1:1-2:3). In spite of this, the Torah recounts that God Himself came down on Mount Sinai and gave the Decalogue to the children of Israel. This is an irrefutable fact. The deliverance of Israel from slavery in Egypt and its continued existence until this very day are also irrefutable facts. To so believe does not make you a heretic.
answered May 16 at 5:39
Clifford DurousseauClifford Durousseau
1,269623
edited May 16 at 9:00
answered May 16 at 5:39
Clifford DurousseauClifford Durousseau
1,269623
answered May 16 at 5:39
Clifford DurousseauClifford Durousseau
1,269623
answered May 16 at 5:39
Clifford DurousseauClifford Durousseau
1,269623
1,269623
Not just the Ten Commandments, but the whole Written and Oral Law...
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 6:17
I do not see anywhere in the Torah where God gave the whole five books to Moses. (Moshe).
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 6:28
I'm sure this question has been already asked here, but you can start reading on WP as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_given_to_Moses_at_Sinai
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 8:47
@Kazi bacs I live in Turkey, where Wikipedia has been banned by the president. So I am not able to access that article.
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 8:55
You're right, sorry. I've found a related question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/95790/15256
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 9:06
|
show 2 more comments
Not just the Ten Commandments, but the whole Written and Oral Law...
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 6:17
I do not see anywhere in the Torah where God gave the whole five books to Moses. (Moshe).
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 6:28
I'm sure this question has been already asked here, but you can start reading on WP as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_given_to_Moses_at_Sinai
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 8:47
@Kazi bacs I live in Turkey, where Wikipedia has been banned by the president. So I am not able to access that article.
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 8:55
You're right, sorry. I've found a related question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/95790/15256
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 9:06
Not just the Ten Commandments, but the whole Written and Oral Law...
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 6:17
Not just the Ten Commandments, but the whole Written and Oral Law...
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 6:17
I do not see anywhere in the Torah where God gave the whole five books to Moses. (Moshe).
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 6:28
I do not see anywhere in the Torah where God gave the whole five books to Moses. (Moshe).
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 6:28
I'm sure this question has been already asked here, but you can start reading on WP as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_given_to_Moses_at_Sinai
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 8:47
I'm sure this question has been already asked here, but you can start reading on WP as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_given_to_Moses_at_Sinai
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 8:47
@Kazi bacs I live in Turkey, where Wikipedia has been banned by the president. So I am not able to access that article.
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 8:55
@Kazi bacs I live in Turkey, where Wikipedia has been banned by the president. So I am not able to access that article.
– Clifford Durousseau
May 16 at 8:55
You're right, sorry. I've found a related question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/95790/15256
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 9:06
You're right, sorry. I've found a related question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/95790/15256
– Kazi bácsi
May 16 at 9:06
|
show 2 more comments
Based on the unanimously accepted Rambam's 13 principles, as long as a person truly believes that the Torah we possess is exactly what was given at Sinai by G-d, he's considered pious and not asked on the details.
A person is not asked/tested whether Avraham was a real man, if Exodus was real or if the facts of the Torah match our empirical reality.
answered May 16 at 11:47
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,4872631
add a comment |
Based on the unanimously accepted Rambam's 13 principles, as long as a person truly believes that the Torah we possess is exactly what was given at Sinai by G-d, he's considered pious and not asked on the details.
A person is not asked/tested whether Avraham was a real man, if Exodus was real or if the facts of the Torah match our empirical reality.
answered May 16 at 11:47
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,4872631
add a comment |
Based on the unanimously accepted Rambam's 13 principles, as long as a person truly believes that the Torah we possess is exactly what was given at Sinai by G-d, he's considered pious and not asked on the details.
A person is not asked/tested whether Avraham was a real man, if Exodus was real or if the facts of the Torah match our empirical reality.
answered May 16 at 11:47
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,4872631
Based on the unanimously accepted Rambam's 13 principles, as long as a person truly believes that the Torah we possess is exactly what was given at Sinai by G-d, he's considered pious and not asked on the details.
A person is not asked/tested whether Avraham was a real man, if Exodus was real or if the facts of the Torah match our empirical reality.
answered May 16 at 11:47
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,4872631
answered May 16 at 11:47
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,4872631
answered May 16 at 11:47
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,4872631
answered May 16 at 11:47
Al BerkoAl Berko
7,4872631
7,4872631
add a comment |
add a comment |
2
Can you define "Orthodox"? There's no official orthodox governing body
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 18:03
Those communities and members that have a stringent observance of Halacha. I really don't know any other way to define it.
– user19166
May 15 at 18:29
1
@Menachem fwiw the Rabbi alluded to is Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon and you rely on his rulings all the time in one way or another.
– Double AA♦
May 15 at 19:12
3
There are plenty of very observant Jews who daven at Orthodox shuls, keep kosher, keep Shabbat and believe, for example, the 6 days of creation lasted much longer than the sort of days we are accustombed to,that perhaps there are parts of the world that were not destroyed by the Mabul (Flood), and have many other non-literal interpretations of events in Tanakh, particularly in Bereshit.
– Josh K
May 15 at 19:29
1
Helpful question with many answers judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/30/bereishit-vs-science
– alicht
May 15 at 19:36